Magic weapon/implement/etc. tax?

Incidentally, if one wants to depart from RAW a bit, its perfectly valid for a DM to declare that "X can be used as a Y" for your game.

In my game, there's a paladin, whom I gave a +1 Sword with some cool mark power .. and decided "Oh, yeah, I want that to be able to function as a Holy Symbol for her, too."

Mechanically? In Character Builder, we equipped her with a run-of-the-mill +1 holy symbol. The math works, I'm happy with it, and the player loves it as she thinks it fits her character concept better than grabbing the cross around her neck. It even gave me a gold-piece cost-equivalent for balancing the rest of the treasure parcel.
 

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Running off a similar idea to Amaroq, why don't you incorporate a ruling for implement casters similar to monks/assassins since they either choose their weapon or their symbol to make their attacks off of.

So you can say the druid uses her totem to channel in her primal powers to strike with her spear with melee attacks. Or avengers using their weapons as implements to channel their divine might etc. So you can choose to either have a holy symbol/totem or a spear/hammer/sword to upgrade instead of both? Could work.
 

This is why I just use the inherent bonus alternate rules from DMG2. Now everybody is where they are supposed to be along the power curve without issue. I can hand out nifty and/or plot related magic items as needed without worrying about who has +X to what. As an added bonus, I can completely divorce magic from the economy without much issue. My PCs receive less gold, but they don't need as much of it either.
 

Yes, thanks. This is only about magic items, not the expertise feats or the feat tax or anything about the math not working out.

It's about attacks with respect to magic items. I guess what I would ideally like to see is how Amaroq says it in post #11. Every class gets a 'weapon' that functions as melee or ranged plus an implement. This keeps a druid, for example, from having to find or buy two items (a spear and a totem) while a fighter only needs to find or buy one. Organically-speaking (i.e. as we play these characters from the ground up), this is a big issue I think. It takes a long time to level up when you don't play often (1/week at best), thus parcels don't come around as often as other games.

As a side note, yes, I'm okay with the ranged vs. melee weapons requiring two separate items.

For those who say this is okay, however, I think it's painting characters into a tight corner. For example:
A bard with all weapon attacks does not need a magic instrument or implement.

A bard with all implement attacks does not need a magic weapon, and only needs a magic wand or a magic instrument.

A bard with a mixture will probably want a songblade, or similar item, that functions as both. Or take the AIP feat.
None of these options are good, IMO. The first one is terrible. A bard WITHOUT an instrument? Never. Also, I'm not up on the powers, but I didn't realize that there were so many with just weapons and no implements. At the very least, if that's true, then the number of powers is cut down by half and that's an even WORSE problem than what I've stated here. The second one is the one I'm really talking about here and what I don't like. You're saying that the bard WILL NEVER make a OA or a charge. That just sucks, really. The third one is a problem. Now, the number of items he can get is reduced to ONE type. All those cool implements, etc., useless. Also, I don't know what AIP means. Probably something about implement proficiency.
 

This'll sound odd... but why does her druid need a melee weapon at all? And what's stopping her from just slapping a spearhead on her staff or just sharpening one end, if that really matters to her?

My bard uses light blades for both implement and melee attacks, and magical instruments for rituals. If I'd chosen to use a dagger, I could make ranged weapon attacks with that too.

And if a caster is using a non-weapliment, such as a wand, they can still make OAs with improvised weapons. They could also make charges, though they'd be bad at it. I'm not sure I see why that's bad, though.

AIP is Arcane Implement Proficiency. You can take, say, heavy blades, light blades, staffs, rods, wands, etc.
 

None of these options are good, IMO.

They are all perfectly fine options in 4e.

The first one is terrible. A bard WITHOUT an instrument? Never.

This is completely personal taste. A story telling dragonborn or goliath bard seems perfectly fine to me. And in most cases I'd rather be fighting with a sword and buckler in my hands, than charging into battle with a lute. I'll happily play my lute during a short rest.

Also, I'm not up on the powers, but I didn't realize that there were so many with just weapons and no implements. At the very least, if that's true, then the number of powers is cut down by half and that's an even WORSE problem than what I've stated here.

Powers being cut down in half is no different than a Str/Wis Cleric or Wis/Cha Cleric, or various paladin builds.

The second one is the one I'm really talking about here and what I don't like. You're saying that the bard WILL NEVER make a OA or a charge. That just sucks, really.

Why? I don't see wizards, invokers, and shamans charging around. The imlpement bard is just another caster type.

The third one is a problem. Now, the number of items he can get is reduced to ONE type. All those cool implements, etc., useless. Also, I don't know what AIP means. Probably something about implement proficiency.

Not useless. You can always dual implement and have a magic weapon in one hand, bard implement in the other. And there is more than one songblade anyway...

And reskinning is as easy as the snap of a finger. Your gnome bard wants to retrofit a flute with a retractable blade and call it a harsh songblade? Snap, done.
 

Infiniti: you're making the (false, IMO) assumption that classes don't get anything for having to worry about multiple weapons/implements.

Here's the thing, though: Every class that has this split (and it just isn't an issue for classes that are pure implement builds -- not having a magic FOO on something you do really rarely (or just using your bare hands to make OAs, even) just isn't a huge deal) actually has different kinds of capabilities along the different styles of power. Bards have a melee build (uses magic weapons) and a ranged build (uses implements) -- a bard can be built using just one or the other (eg, the equivalent of a fighter who chooses to take heavy blade powers, not flail or axe powers), or you can spend a bit more or takes some feats so you can do both. Similarly, Druids are a classic example, as in beastform, they're very effective melee combattants (even without a weapon; beastform Druids make melee basics with their implement and add wisdom), but can't do ranged or area attacks; in human form they have at best a very bad basic attack without serious feat support that's frankly not worth putting into them, given that it only takes a minor action to shift to beastform. The -worst- is the Artificer -- who pays for being able to use both ranged and melee weapons -and- implements with the player having to maintain and juggle three items.

But--all classes are segmented. You're never choosing from the full list of powers unless you pay a lot to do so -- and that's intentional; remember that every class has a choice between either two primary abilities or two secondary abilities. So the fact that there's a cost for, effectively, getting access to an entire class's worth of new abilities to choose from (because nearly every class can play very effectively on just one side of their divide -- you can build an artificer that's a pure weapon build; a bard that's pure ranged or pure melee, a laser cleric or a melee cleric (and even give the laser cleric some melee attacks); a druid that spends all their time in beast form or one who only goes into it to get the minor action shift.

The only real issue here are options that are clearly better than other options. Staff is the big one (for everyone except sorcerers, who get dagger as an implement, which since it gives them a usable basic melee -and- a basic ranged attack, is a one handed, off-hand weapon, and has a higher proficiency bonus to boot, is clearly superior aside from there not being a dagger of ruin) for classes that have it as an option.

There, It's incumbent on the designers to provide cookies for the other implements that help them measure up. In general, I think implements are better than a weapon of their level (note, for example, the high crit die implements, which often also have a good power), but I'm not convinced the designers have properly balanced things (though usually the non-weapon implement at least has a pile of class-specific powers that can be better than the generic stuff. Warlocks get a ton of cool things to do with rods; songblades all have their own powers and properties as well as being weapliments for bards; totems have cool and interesting shaman and druid powers.
 

A bard WITHOUT an instrument? Never.

Really? I guess the skald who sings epic poems while cutting apart his enemies will just go sit in a corner and weep. Oh wait, no he won't, he's too busy KICKING ASS.

The second one is the one I'm really talking about here and what I don't like. You're saying that the bard WILL NEVER make a OA or a charge. That just sucks, really.

Uh, unless they've invested in Melee Training or something, even a sword-using bard's OAs and charges are pretty worthless. Bards are flat-out not designed for basic attacks. You can take feats and powers to become better, but then you're melee-focused anyway so what do you need a wand for?

Also, as many people have pointed out: druids don't need magic spears. Period. They get implement-based at-wills usable as MBAs if you want them. You seem to be complaining about problems that mostly don't even exist.
 

The only classes I can see -needing- to mix implement and weapon attacks are some Avengers, and some Paladins, as Weapon-power heavy combatants with a few Implement powers that are pretty damn good.

There's a number of weapons -specifically designed- for those two classes that make them better at what they do.

Those happen to be holy symbols as well.

Besides that, if you CAN have a holy symbol, you SHOULD. Properties, yo.
 

I think what it comes down to is this:

Buying a magical weapon that is 1 plus worse than your primary weapon is 1/5th the price of your primary. As long as your DM hands out half-decent loot, you shouldn't have any issues paying for it.
 

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