Magic weapon/implement/etc. tax?

[BobTheNob]

I would personally simply prefer that we every class had access to implements which work like symbols in that they could be worn (i.e. symbols are not "holy", but generic, so everyone could take them). Then, if you wanted to take an implement, they would automatically have attributes like they have specified under superior implements (like wands are accurate, rods are deadly and so-forth) to make them worth giving a hand up for.

My two cents.

 

[DracoSuave]

I would personally simply prefer that we every class had access to implements which work like symbols in that they could be worn (i.e. symbols are not "holy", but generic, so everyone could take them). Then, if you wanted to take an implement, they would automatically have attributes like they have specified under superior implements (like wands are accurate, rods are deadly and so-forth) to make them worth giving a hand up for.

My two cents.

You already can carry an implement in one hand, and have the other empty. A return question would be:

What weapon property is out there other than defensive that's worth giving up a hand for, if you're an implement user?

EDIT: Other than the staff, dagger, light blade, or heavy blade you're probably using as an implement, obviously.

 

[Spatula]

None of these options are good, IMO. The first one is terrible. A bard WITHOUT an instrument? Never.

A bard without a magic instrument is what I said. Not that there's anything wrong with poet or singing or interpretive dancing bards.

Also, I'm not up on the powers, but I didn't realize that there were so many with just weapons and no implements. At the very least, if that's true, then the number of powers is cut down by half and that's an even WORSE problem than what I've stated here.

It's about a 50/50 split in PHB2, less with the ranged weapon spells in Arcane Power. As others have noticed this is true of many if not most classes. If you're a STR-based paladin, you probably don't have the stats to be investing in CHA-based prayers. Generally speaking, bard weapon attacks tie into the virtue of valor, bard implement spells tie into the virtue of cunning, and bard ranged weapon attacks go with the virtue of prescience.

The second one is the one I'm really talking about here and what I don't like. You're saying that the bard WILL NEVER make a OA or a charge. That just sucks, really.

Does your class/build have STR as a primary or secondary attribute? No? Does it have an at-will that can be used as a melee basic attack? No? Did you spend a feat on Melee Training? No? Then your OAs and charges (and grabs, and bull rushes...) are almost certainly going to suck. Most classes (15 out of 26, I think) fall into that category.

But the question is, why would a pure caster bard be charging into melee? If that's what you want your bard to do, there are bard weapon attacks that can be used in a charge, and you're into the third category of a bard that mixes melee & implement spells.

The third one is a problem. Now, the number of items he can get is reduced to ONE type. All those cool implements, etc., useless. Also, I don't know what AIP means. Probably something about implement proficiency.

There's actually several different varities songblades. And cool wands? They're the most boring implement of the lot IMO. And most of them are of dubious value anyway, thanks to the rule about not being able to use the wand effectively if it contains a spell outside your class.

Arcane Implement Proficiency (AIP) can allow a bard to cast all his or her spells through a heavy or light blade.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Okay, thanks for the replies everyone. It certainly seems like it's just a personal problem I'm having and I guess I'll have to deal with it. Essentially, though, what I'm getting is this:

- DRUID: reskin her +2 spear into a +2 staff or give it the "totem" power.
- BARD: tell him to get AIP if he cares about using weapons, and then GIVE him a weapon instead of a magical wand. Also, tell him to not bother using an instrument at all. In any case, suggestions like AIP are definitely what I was really interested in. It'd be nice if there was something to tie in the weapon, instrument, and wand though.

Regarding the instrument itself, it's the bard's choice. I see no reason why one flavor decision should be so gimped vs. another.

 

[bganon]

And most of them are of dubious value anyway, thanks to the rule about not being able to use the wand effectively if it contains a spell outside your class.

What exactly are you referring to here?

 

[keterys]

Okay, thanks for the replies everyone. It certainly seems like it's just a personal problem I'm having and I guess I'll have to deal with it. Essentially, though, what I'm getting is this:

- DRUID: reskin her +2 spear into a +2 staff or give it the "totem" power.

There is at least one spear that counts as a totem, btw.
Alfsair Spear

This spear is a favorite druid weapon.
Level: 3
Price: 680 gp
Weapon: Spear
Enhancement: +1 attack rolls and damage rolls
Critical: +1d8 psychic and poison damage per plus
Property: You gain an item bonus to Nature checks equal to the spear’s enhancement bonus.
Property: Classes that use totems can use this spear as an implement for class powers and paragon path powers.
Power (Daily * Poison, Psychic): No Action. Trigger: You score a critical hit against an enemy with this spear. Effect: The enemy hit by the triggering attack is dazed until the end of its next turn.

- BARD: tell him to get AIP if he cares about using weapons, and then GIVE him a weapon instead of a magical wand. Also, tell him to not bother using an instrument at all. In any case, suggestions like AIP are definitely what I was really interested in. It'd be nice if there was something to tie in the weapon, instrument, and wand though.

Regarding the instrument itself, it's the bard's choice. I see no reason why one flavor decision should be so gimped vs. another.

AIP or Songblades are the routes I'd suggest, in general, but there are magic instruments that count as +X. You could also have an instrument that may be used as a melee weapon, such as a flute that can transform into a sword or a harp you can fire arrows from. The sky is your limit there.

That said, you might be a good fit for the rule from DMG2 that just has people get a natural enhancement bonus as they level, so at 6th they count as +2, 11th +3 (or whatever, I don't know the actual # off the top of my head)

 

[mneme]

- DRUID: reskin her +2 spear into a +2 staff or give it the "totem" power.

Nah. Druid: Turn into a beast when things get tight. Congrats; you've just saved both the cost of a magic weapon -and- a feat (for melee training(Wis).

- BARD: tell him to get AIP if he cares about using weapons, and then GIVE him a weapon instead of a magical wand. Also, tell him to not bother using an instrument at all. In any case, suggestions like AIP are definitely what I was really interested in. It'd be nice if there was something to tie in the weapon, instrument, and wand though.

Regarding the instrument itself, it's the bard's choice. I see no reason why one flavor decision should be so gimped vs. another.

Bard: Melee Bards; Were never wielding a magic wand in the first place, but to get Implement powers, dual wield a songblade, pick up AIP(weapon of choice), or have a secondary wand/insturment. Insturment is best, really, as you can get Short Rest powers. If you don't bother with Implement powers, just carry a non-magical insturment if you want one and Short Rest powers aren't worthwhile for you.
Implement Bards: Carry a lower-level songblade as a backup weapon and/or for Dual Implement Wielder.
Bow Bards: have feats that let them use a bow as an implement, and songbows. They don't have melee, but that's true for any dedicated ranged combatants, and at paragon they're shooting Implement spells at weapon range, so who cares; the monsters never get to close except in tiny rooms.

The thing to keep in mind is that it's not flavor. Druids get ranged and area abiliities in human form and melee in beast form with one implement/stat, so pay for this flexibility by not being able to do everything all at once. Bards get melee with weapons, ranged with Implement powers, and long range with bows -- so again, they pay for range flexibility with needing different tools for each.

 

[DracoSuave]

Druids get ranged and area abiliities in human form and melee in beast form with one implement/stat, so pay for this flexibility by not being able to do everything all at once.

Wild Shape's a minor action anyways, it's rare that they -need- to do both in a turn AND be in the wrong shape to do so.

And -every- druid has a Beast Form at-will.

 

[Marshall]

Is there anything that feat DOES NOT do?

Yes. Any of the above.

Your weapon group expertise ONLY applies to WEAPON attacks.
Your implement group expertise ONLY applies to IMPLEMENT attacks.

It definitely overrides Focused, Weapon and Implement but its still not the flat Expertise that it should be.

 

[keterys]

Yes. Any of the above.

Your weapon group expertise ONLY applies to WEAPON attacks.
Your implement group expertise ONLY applies to IMPLEMENT attacks.

It definitely overrides Focused, Weapon and Implement but its still not the flat Expertise that it should be.

Actually, I've seen arguments that taking, say, Versatile Expertise (Heavy Blades, Light Blades) on a character who could use one or the other as implements would cover all of your attacks (weapon or implement) with both heavy and light blades, due to the wording.

The trick is being able to use a weapon group as an implement type, though. Well, that and a DM that buys that argument.