Magic weapon/implement/etc. tax?

[Spatula]

- BARD: tell him to get AIP if he cares about using weapons, and then GIVE him a weapon instead of a magical wand. Also, tell him to not bother using an instrument at all. In any case, suggestions like AIP are definitely what I was really interested in. It'd be nice if there was something to tie in the weapon, instrument, and wand though.

Make one up! keterys had some good ideas, I thought.

Or, give the character both items (instrument + weapon) in treasure. If you're using parcels, throw in an extra one for the bard, knowing that the extra item isn't really making the character more powerful than the others.

What exactly are you referring to here?

Well, maybe it was just a bug in the character builder where you wouldn't get the enhancement bonus of the implement with the wizard spell in the wand, because technically you could not use wizard implements (as you were not a wizard). I see that the program no longer shows the wand spell in your power list, though, so maybe that was wrong and they're working on it.

 

[Obryn]

Also? I think it only fair that a druid could duct tape their totem to their spear. Hand, schmand.

-O

 

[mneme]

#28: Indeed. Basically, a druid pays for being able to do everything (including getting an extra At Will) by having to "lock" her capabilities in a given turn -- thus on at least some turns where she makes an area attack, she doesn't have a reasonable MBA for OAs and granted attacks (there's no disadvantage to running around in beast form all the time, except that ranged area invocations are technically more powerful -- all things being equal).

#29: Says who? I gave the wording of Versitile Expertise upthread -- it never says anything about Weapon powers or Implement powers. Just that you get a +1 feat bonus to hit with the chosen groups of items. Nothing about what powers you have to be using with them at all. If you have +1 to hit with Light Blades, you have a +1 to hit with all attacks with them -- implement and melee.

Mind, at the very least I'd rule VE that you can only choose groups you're proficient in using. So you'd need to be a monk to get VE: All weapons you're proficient in, or a swordmage to get VE: light blades. Otherwise, even if they eratta VE that the implement bonus only works with Implement powers, everyone who can use weapons as an implements take the monk version instead of their own, as it's just superior (particularly for all weapliment classes, such as sorcs and swordmages).

One reason I prefer VE as written (except that it should require proficiency) is that this lets it cover magic weapliments reasonably. If VE covers your weapon even if you're using it for Implement powers, the Alsfar Spear or Songblade you pick up has a reasonable attack bonus--otherwise, not so much.

 

[Mengu]

Also? I think it only fair that a druid could duct tape their totem to their spear. Hand, schmand.

Don't forget to duct tape a sunrod to the other end. And while you're at it, duct tape a few whetstones and some potions on there for easy access... On second thought, velcro might work better.

 

[Felon]

As for bard, I would've thought you pick up the virtue you like the best and take powers that are akin to that style of fighting, since bard have weapon, implement and ranged attacks. So either bow, sword or wand not all 3 usually. (You can get around this with taking karmic shaper for a bow as an implement, or eladrin using longswords as wands.)

The Euphonic Bow uses the bow as implement. As to picking one option and stikcing to it, the problem there is that right now the bard is heavily slanted towards implement powers. Don't see any Arcane Power 2 on the horizon....

In general, this is a big hassle for many classes. A ranger trying to dual-wield two one-handed weapons, for example. It's really not accounted for in the assumed progression of character magic items.

Generally speaking, bard weapon attacks tie into the virtue of valor, bard implement spells tie into the virtue of cunning, and bard ranged weapon attacks go with the virtue of prescience.

That covers one or two spells at every level, but everything else that's left over is implement. Heck, look at the at-wills. Every bard's using an implement power of some kind.

 

[mneme]

That covers one or two spells at every level, but everything else that's left over is implement. Heck, look at the at-wills. Every bard's using an implement power of some kind.

Not necessarily. Guiding Strike and War Song Strike are sufficiently different to be worth having both, and there are bard Melee weapon powers at every level (except 19. But there are plenty of lower level dailies). Some of them are even Int-secondary powers (rather than Con-secondary ones) -- Cunnng Ferocity or Dissonant Insturment, and several can be used by any build.

Now, it's -good- for most bards to have some Implement or Ranged Weapon powers -- because it's bad to get caught without a ranged option when you're up against a flier or otherwise have some reason you can't close. But a single ranged at-will and a second-hand Implement suffices nicely for that.

 

[eriktheguy]

Create a new item:
Druid spear
Weapon
Druids spear cannot be used to make weapon attacks
When you buy a druid spear choose an implement type. Druid spear can be used as that implement and can only receive enchantments as though it were that type of implement.

Seriously though, you can have a lot more fun with this game if you re-skin everything. Example: Want a drunken brawler type fighter that throws enemies in to each other to hurt them? They already made that power, its called cleave.

 

[bganon]

Well, maybe it was just a bug in the character builder where you wouldn't get the enhancement bonus of the implement with the wizard spell in the wand, because technically you could not use wizard implements (as you were not a wizard). I see that the program no longer shows the wand spell in your power list, though, so maybe that was wrong and they're working on it.

Yeah, I just recently noticed that wording, but I really don't think it was quite what was intended. It certainly never before even occurred to me to play it that way.

Anyway, regarding extra treasure... magic item value doubles about every two levels (more like 2.2). So handing out four "big three" items (weapon, implement, armor, neck) instead of three amounts to pushing the party just one level up the treasure curve, and that's even assuming the extra you give out is just as good as the others (something like PC level+2). It really shouldn't be a big deal overall.