Magic weapons and bounded accuracy

[Yaarel]

I plan to make magic weapons always hit. Magically.

For example, a +2 sword always inflicts 2 damage, even when the adventurer misses. It cuts uncannily, even without contact. If the adventurer hits, then sword cuts harder, adding the 2 damage to whatever damage the adventurer would normally do. On a miss, the 2 damage is the only effect, and doesnt allow a poisoned blade or so on to make contact.

I like the 5e ‘bounded accuracy’. It strives to minimize magic bonuses to the d20 roll to avoid the ‘treadmill’ of higher and higher bonuses to reach higher level creatures. I approve. I care about gaming balance.

Magic weapons remain a concern. It is difficult for a DM to avoid granting them, because they are so traditional. Traditionally, even a ‘vanilla’ magic weapon gives a bonus to attack - and can provoke a treadmill.

From now on, I plan to tweak such magic weapons (or hi-tek). They will never add their bonus to the d20 roll. Instead, the bonus constitutes the minimum damage on a miss.

This means, magic weapons normally remain within the bounded accuracy.

 

[DaveDash]

Magic Weapons are ok in terms of bounded accuracy with the exception of certain feats, which are being discussed elsewhere.

I fretted about them in the beginning, but now the Paladin (Level 16) in my group has a +3 Vorpal Greatsword and the Wizard (Level 16) is running around with a Wand of the War Mage +3 and Staff of Power (+5 extra!). It's not the end of the world, it just means I throw in an extra creature or two to make up for it.
They also didn't really find anything better than a +1 weapon for quite some time though.

Bless, which is a spell available to Clerics from level 1, and basically becomes a spammable resource later on adds 2.5 on average, so, there you go.

 

[Yaarel]

Bless is too potent for a level 1 spell.

The main reason for focusing on weapons is, the other sources for bonuses are more difficult to catch, and they add up quickly. By removing the weapons from the total - while maintaining a satisfactory effect and flavor - it gives more room for error elsewhere.

 

[Yaarel]

I tried to quantify what ‘feels’ like a useful standard for a d20 roll.

Someone around level 10 would often have a total bonus of around +10, including ability, proficiency, item, and so on. For someone with about +10, the bounds are a tight 20-point spread, the span of a d20 roll. Thus, the difficulty ratings range from DC 10 (negligibly easy) to DC 30 (extremely difficult). Difficulties below 10 or above 30 rarely require a roll, and come into play because of DM handwavy adjudication. Notice, DC 00 (auto-success) and DC 40 (auto-fail) are sharp edges.

Difficulty for +10 Bonus
40 Auto-fail (impossible)
35 Miraculous (normally impossible)
30 Extreme (rare, requires peak of human ability for even chance of success)
25 Hard (improbable)
20 Doable (50/50 chance)
15 Easy (probable)
10 Trivial (common)
05 Routine (normally certain)
00 Auto-success (certain)

Note, apprentices at low levels often have about total +5, so what is ‘Easy’ for +10 seems more difficult for +5.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I plan to make magic weapons always hit. Magically.

For example, a +2 sword always inflicts 2 damage, even when the adventurer misses. It cuts uncannily, even without contact.

Don't see a big problem with that. DoaM roused some ire late in the playtest, but that was for a martial ability, magic always gets a free pass, and any 1/2 damage on a save spell is already functionally identical to DoaM, anyway.

It is a very minor impact, though. Not only is 1, 2 or 3 damage pretty trivial, but 5e's math is weighted towards PC hitting pretty often, so it doesn't even come up that much.

I like the 5e ‘bounded accuracy’. It strives to minimize magic bonuses to the d20 roll to avoid the ‘treadmill’ of higher and higher bonuses to reach higher level creatures. I approve. I care about gaming balance.

The 5e 'treadmill' takes into account only Proficiency and stat bumps, and is kept numerically small enough that the randomness of the d20 can always overwhelm it. That's bounded accuracy, not no treadmill, just a slower one with smaller numbers.

Magic Weapons are not part of that, they're not considered when designing higher level monsters, so make a character with one 'just better' at hitting. (And, again, monster ACs are such that PCs tend to hit level-appropriate enemies maybe 60-70% of the time.)

 

[Ashkelon]

Don't see a big problem with that. DoaM roused some ire late in the playtest, but that was for a martial ability, magic always gets a free pass, and any 1/2 damage on a save spell is already functionally identical to DoaM, anyway.

It is a very minor impact, though. Not only is 1, 2 or 3 damage pretty trivial, but 5e's math is weighted towards PC hitting pretty often, so it doesn't even come up that much.


The 5e 'treadmill' takes into account only Proficiency and stat bumps, and is kept numerically small enough that the randomness of the d20 can always overwhelm it. That's bounded accuracy, not no treadmill, just a slower one with smaller numbers.

Magic Weapons are not part of that, they're not considered when designing higher level monsters, so make a character with one 'just better' at hitting. (And, again, monster ACs are such that PCs tend to hit level-appropriate enemies maybe 60-70% of the time.)

I thought they were considered when designing higher level monsters. Using the random treasure tables shows that on average every PC in the party will have a +1 weapon by level 7 or so, a +2 weapon by level 15 or so, and a +3 weapon by level 20.

If you use those as baselines and compare to numbers to the ACs of monsters by CR, you will see that you typically hit enemies of your same CR between 65 - 75% of the time across all levels of play. Mayve the designers said magic items weren't taken into account when they designed the monsters, but the math and the treasure tables seem to show otherwise.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I thought they were considered when designing higher level monsters. Using the random treasure tables shows that on average every PC in the party will have a +1 weapon by level 7 or so, a +2 weapon by level 15 or so, and a +3 weapon by level 20.

During the playtest they said repeatedly that magic items were not going to be assumed in advancement when doing 'da math' and would make characters 'just better.' Maybe they blinked at the last minute or something, but that's been the party line throughout the development and release of 5e, AFAIR.

 

[Tormyr]

One thing to look at with damage on a miss will be how it interacts with spell Concentration saving throws. Damage on a miss means there are several more saving throws if the DM decides to go that way.

 

[Ashkelon]

During the playtest they said repeatedly that magic items were not going to be assumed in advancement when doing 'da math' and would make characters 'just better.' Maybe they blinked at the last minute or something, but that's been the party line throughout the development and release of 5e, AFAIR.

I'm not denying that has been their line since day 1. I even complained about that being their line during the play test when they simultaneously included spells like magic weapon (somewhat fixed due to concentration), had plenty of magic items in all the modules (still the same as it was during the play test), had many high level monsters with resistance or immunity to non magic weapons (also still around), and had random treasure tables that all but ensure your typical party will have more than enough +3 weapons by level 20 (also still the same).

Even in the monster manual they mention that by level 11+ resistance to damage from non magic weapons doesn't increase monsters effective HP because every party member is expected to have a magic weapon by that point.

I think that because AC falls into such a narrow range, the treadmill isn't as obvious but it is still there for sure, either by intent or accident. At level 5 you typically have a +7 to hit and your enemies have an AC of 13-15. By level 11 you have a +10 to hit and enemies have a 16-18 AC. By level 20 you typically have a +14 to hit and are going against AC 20-22 enemies. Sure there are some outliers, but for the most part the trend is fairly linear.