Magical Tropes and Rules you Enjoy

[Herremann the Wise]

Hello Everyone,

The Vancian magic thread got me thinking about what it is in a game that makes magic fun and well... makes magic magical. I've never minded Vancian magic myself but it really seems more a curiosity of magical casting than something that would end up being the dominant theme through all but one version of D&D - with 4e refining the mechanics and expanding it across almost all the classes. However, 4e introduced the "ritual" which I think opens the door to some fantastic ideas, giving the gameworld the mechanics to produce more "original" effects that are otherwise hard to tie to a particular spell or effect.

Anyway, the magical tropes that I personally like to play with are:

1. Magic is mysterious and potentially deadly for the caster. The art of playing with one's soul as it were.

2. Magic is not easy to cast (not automatic at the very least). Miscasting is a reality and a dangerous one.

3. Casting magic can be wearying for the caster - eventually exhausting them or worse if they seek beyond their limits.

4. I still love the idea of casters discovering new magic and putting their name to it as per the Dying Earth series. Forging one's name into the history of a world's magic is always an empowering option.

How about you?

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[howandwhy99]

1. Partial player-defined magic per character. Not that folks can't share a magic system.

2. Magic as a partly mysterious, a learning process performed through play by casting spells or whatever you want to call them.

3. Formulaic over declarative, though I would keep the Wish spell.

4. Magickal Laws discovered through play based upon the logic patterns of the game.

5. New spell creation with descriptions submitted by players allowing both autonomy and personalization, yet still having effects incorporated in the system.

 

[Haltherrion]

Nice discussion. For me there are two conflicting pulls on magic regarding how it is handled in a system. On the one hand, I like a lower magic system and the chance of misfires. On the other hand, in a game, it needs to be handled in a way where everyone has fun. If a PC must be focused on magic in order to use it (as in nearly all D&D versions and classes) than making it weak or infrequent can really make the magic users not-fun compared to the non-magic users. But make it balanced with the respect to the warriors and maybe you strip out all the mystery and vagaries.

But there are other approaches. Some examples might be systems where everyone can try to use magic, it layers over base abilities. So making it fail a lot isn't catastrophic- you can always decide whether to favor magic or more mundane approaches.

To your particular questions:

Anyway, the magical tropes that I personally like to play with are:

1. Magic is mysterious and potentially deadly for the caster. The art of playing with one's soul as it were.

I like this in concept but wonder how it can be effectively handled in a game. It seems like the D&D approach where certain classes depend on magic wouldn't work because such classes would have no choice but to use magic and therefore the negative effects ("playing with one's soul") can't really be much of a bother because if they were, the magic user would be quickly dead or nerfed into uselessness.

In a system designed from the ground up to allow people to dabble in magic as much as they risked but let them be useful without magic, it could be another matter but even then, you'd need to be prepared to kill the character if they pushed it too far and this can be difficult.

It reminds of the post apocalyptic games that models radiation as irreversible damage. Yes this may be realistic but what does this mean as a game? If I push my character for legitimate in-character reasons do I make him unplayable at some point? Where does that leave me with respect to other players who might be a little more weaselly about skirting the edge? I die, they get my gear and I get to start over with a level 1 character? That seems like a stiff penalty for playing my character "well".

2. Magic is not easy to cast (not automatic at the very least). Miscasting is a reality and a dangerous one.

I like the concept in principle but balancing for a game is tough. Take your typical combat system where I, the player, get to do something every 10 to 20 minutes as we cycle through combat. Me, mage: I try to cast a spell, oops it failed. I wait another 20 minutes well the non-casters get to do their stuff before seeing if I fail again. Darn, the dice aren't with me and I fail 4 times in a row... gee, golly, 90 min to 2 hours have gone by and I've done diddly. This isn't really a lot of fun... Hmm this reminds me of my last talisman game were I could roll much more than a 2...

3. Casting magic can be wearying for the caster - eventually exhausting them or worse if they seek beyond their limits.

Well, again interesting in concept but can be dull for the magic caster. Mage: "I need a rest to be useful again." Warrior: "Naw, I'm good, let's push on... hey another batter, cool!" Mage: "I guess I'll read a book while you guys spend an hour resolving the next battle cuz I can't do anything but toss darts and darts don't do a lot."

4. I still love the idea of casters discovering new magic and putting their name to it as per the Dying Earth series. Forging one's name into the history of a world's magic is always an empowering option.

Very cool concept but seems hard to balance. I'm sure I sound more negative than I mean to but it's hard to capture the design items you mention while delivering a system that is fun for all players.

Interesting discussion topic though.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I like a lot of magic systems, but some of my faves have not really shown up in any major game. I mean, sure, I can model them in HERO, but I'm talking about in dedicated FRPG.

1. A true animist system, in which magical effects & powers are exclusively gained by pacts and favors with spirits of the dead and of nature.
2. A true mana-based system in which casters must gather mana to cast, and how much mana in an area is a limited resource that requires skill to manipulate.
3. dangerous magic that has the potential to permanently alter the mind or structure of those who manipulate it.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Nice discussion. For me there are two conflicting pulls on magic regarding how it is handled in a system. On the one hand, I like a lower magic system and the chance of misfires. On the other hand, in a game, it needs to be handled in a way where everyone has fun.

I wonder whether these are conflicting pulls. For example, over at Paizo where they have their RPGSuperstar competition and the open call where entrants submit a wondrous magical item: the question becomes are you more likely to get selected into the top 32 by really strong mechanics, or by focusing on rich provocative flavour? The answer is of course both and I'm wondering whether that could be the same here. A grittier magic system that is still fun; is this the holy grail or is it possible?

If a PC must be focused on magic in order to use it (as in nearly all D&D versions and classes) than making it weak or infrequent can really make the magic users not-fun compared to the non-magic users.

Does this become a trade-off then? Normally, it is the high-level "uber-wizard" playing an arms race with the DM as someone mentioned in that other thread that is sucking up all the fun. While this may be a balancing of sorts, I think it does go against that whole ethos of getting your cake and eating it too.

But make it balanced with the respect to the warriors and maybe you strip out all the mystery and vagaries.

I think it does suck out the mystery of it if you deliberately hamstring the wizard so as the fighter can keep up. However, I think the biggest design disservice here is actually to the fighter (please excuse this tangent). If you have ever read David Gemmell's "Legend" and the character of Druss; now there is a high level fighter! Perhaps the biggest thing that a fighter misses out on compared to the wizard is affecting multiple enemies and the perception that all they have is their weapon. Look at how Druss could affect the opposition by his mere presence. And the same with his allies. These are effects that need to be put into the rules so as the fighter can do his thing and not be outclassed by the wizard. They are inherently mundane but perhaps all the more powerful because of it.

But there are other approaches. Some examples might be systems where everyone can try to use magic, it layers over base abilities. So making it fail a lot isn't catastrophic- you can always decide whether to favor magic or more mundane approaches.

If everyone has access to it, is magic special enough any more or does it become a mere tool like a hammer or chisel? Mathematically, does it become a lottery of an effect that by sheer luck the bumpkin manages to succeed with while his learned betters look on aghast? The only mystery of the magic then is its erratic nature.

Thank you for your further responses - I shall respond to them tomorrow as it has become too late and sleep tends to be an erratic mistress for me at the best of times.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Nagol]

I like a lot of magic systems, but some of my faves have not really shown up in any major game. I mean, sure, I can model them in HERO, but I'm talking about in dedicated FRPG.

1. A true animist system, in which magical effects & powers are exclusively gained by pacts and favors with spirits of the dead and of nature.
2. A true mana-based system in which casters must gather mana to cast, and how much mana in an area is a limited resource that requires skill to manipulate.
3. dangerous magic that has the potential to permanently alter the mind or structure of those who manipulate it.

I knopw some games that map to your list.

Ars Magica's Shamans supplement had an animist system that worked pretty well for that game.

Witchcraft has a mana system as does Pendragon.

Deadlands has a particularly dangrous magic system.

 

[Nagol]

Some of the aspects that increase my enjoyment of magical sub-systems:

1) Magic responds to an underlying set of rules that can be understood, but don't necessarily match normal physical laws. Think contagion, sympathy, or astrological correspondencies.

2) Accessing magic has a cost. That cost can be dramatic and immediate such as a soul contract, longer term like the Deadlands possibility of possession, premature aging / periods of recovery like Pendragon, or much more personal like a personal fetish that is required to be maintained.

3) There are multiple paths of magic with different strengths and weaknesses. The paths use the same underlying fabric, but their focus and methods allow for different trade offs to be made.

4) There are non-magical/semi-magical counters to magic to help protect society based upon (1). Things like threshold protection, charms that change astrological correspondencies for the wearer, and gestures/rituals to ward off the evil eye.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Hello Everyone,

The Vancian magic thread got me thinking about what it is in a game that makes magic fun and well... makes magic magical. I've never minded Vancian magic myself but it really seems more a curiosity of magical casting than something that would end up being the dominant theme through all but one version of D&D - with 4e refining the mechanics and expanding it across almost all the classes. However, 4e introduced the "ritual" which I think opens the door to some fantastic ideas, giving the gameworld the mechanics to produce more "original" effects that are otherwise hard to tie to a particular spell or effect.

Anyway, the magical tropes that I personally like to play with are:

1. Magic is mysterious and potentially deadly for the caster. The art of playing with one's soul as it were.

2. Magic is not easy to cast (not automatic at the very least). Miscasting is a reality and a dangerous one.

3. Casting magic can be wearying for the caster - eventually exhausting them or worse if they seek beyond their limits.

At first I thought I'd dislike these three, but I came to the conclusion that I like these in fiction.

IMO, powerful magic in a game (relative to caster level, at least) should have these restrictions. A wizard could try to cast a scroll of a higher spell or ritual level could have it fail spectacularly, and a wizard trying to "do things man was not meant to do" (necromancy, infernal warlock magic, contact other plane, etc) might face similar costs. However, for basic adventuring spells, I would say no to these costs.

The in-universe cost for basic spellcasting would be the educational costs. You don't have to pay a student loan since you're basically a slave to a wizard for several years learning magic and doing odd chores. Unless you're a sorcerer, in which case you just wake up from some odd dreams and start dishing out lightning bolts...

 

[amerigoV]

1. Magic is mysterious and potentially deadly for the caster. The art of playing with one's soul as it were.

I really enjoy the Savage Worlds system. It uses trappings to provide flavor and themes for spells.

Currently, I am running a psionicist. On a crit fail roll, a psychic scream emanates out from my guy - sort of a psychic fireball at ground zero. So not only is it dangerous to the caster, it is also dangerous to anyone near him. It's only happened once in play so far. But I gotta say I secretly hope it happens again. It creates so much mayhem in the battle.

 

[Haltherrion]

If everyone has access to it, is magic special enough any more or does it become a mere tool like a hammer or chisel? Mathematically, does it become a lottery of an effect that by sheer luck the bumpkin manages to succeed with while his learned betters look on aghast? The only mystery of the magic then is its erratic nature.

I won't claim to have thought this all the way through but I was thinking more along the lines of any PC could choose to pursue magic (maybe it has more of a psionics feel at least in the sense that it is innate) to a minor extent, but not enough that the characters became hard-core casters. Therefore, as a minor element of their character, they could always choose to not use magic without knocking the legs out from under their PC. This would allow magic to be highly random, highly draining and possibly very dangerous without "ruining" the PC; that is making it unplayable.

One way to do it is to not require much training to use magic; it's something you pick up as you go a long. Say for instance in a class-less system, PCs could put some portion of their "level up points" into magic use. If you limit how much they could put into magic at any one level, you have magic, it can be rare and dangerous.

It could fit Gandalf for instance who in LOTR doesn't really handle lots of heavyweight magic. He knows a lot of lore, some interesting utility and flash-bang spells, maybe some protection magic not explicitly called out in the book but he swings a sword with the rest of the folks in some battles.

My issue is making the magic more subtle and dangerous while still making it fun for any PCs using it and not driving it into the hands of only NPCs (because it is unusable for PCs). I think it could be done but I don't think most classic FRPG systems are necessarily the way to do it.

For instance, in a system where a few people invest a little bit in magic and casting a spell causes permanent damage to their PC so that ultimately they either can't cast magic or must stop using it, if they haven't given up a lot of ability to be able to use magic, the player won't feel all that put out about not using it much and eventually stopping to use it (or killing his PC). If magic defines most of his PC's utility but he is forced to be sparing in its use or it rarely works, it can be a very frustrating experience. Such a system might be internally quite consistent, fresh and exciting to the refereee but not necessariy be much fun to play, at least not as a caster and many folks do like to play casters. As [MENTION=1165](Psi)SeveredHead[/MENTION] notes, it might work better in fiction than in a game.

Could do be done with care though and it might better capture magic as often treated in fiction. If you went my route, making it accessible to all interested could offset the basic reduction of its utility in the player's mindd. Fun discussion.