D&D 4E Magics Items in 4E

[pemerton]

What happens if the legacy weapon is sundered or eaten by a rust monster? Or lost?

Find it, fix it, or otherwise replace it. And the advantage is, if you do it yourself, your descendants won't have to wander around the wildnerness until some half-elven lord decides to do it for them!

Or throw it back into the Lake and have the Lady return it to you whole.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I've seen some other bits of marketing fluff that suggest the same thing. It sounds like utter nonsense to me--a square circle.

Either magic items are: A. Useful or B. Useless.

If magic items are useful then a character with magic items will, all other things being equal, be more powerful than a character without them. Since games will vary widely in the amount and nature of items given out, this will lead to dramatic differences in power at higher levels (where different game styles have a cumulative effect). If one 15th character has a better sword, better armor, and a magic cloak thank makes him better and the other character has a only treasured potion of cure light wounds, there will be very few possible ways to design creatures that present similar challenges to them.

If, on the other hand, magic items are useless, then a character with and without magic items will be equally capable, but a game without magic swords that are actually better than non-magic swords is not D&D anymore.

You can balance a game so that no-one has magic items. You can balance a game so that everyone has a certain expected amount of magic at any given level. You can't make a game where magic is both useful and makes no difference to a character's power. It's a contradition in terms.

The newest podcast has a section where it's said that the Fighter in one of the playtests still doesn't have any magic items at all. Then it's said that they didn't plan to leave magic items out like that, but if they would have thought of it they would have probably intentionally done it. That implies to me that they like that they were able to balance everything just fine without having any magic items in the game.

So, it sounds to me like magic items are designed so that even if you hand out none, the game still runs perfectly well (for a designer intimately familiar with the rules...).

 

[Gundark]

I just hope the christmas tree effect is truely gone, not just disguised as feats, powers etc.

 

[FireLance]

I've seen some other bits of marketing fluff that suggest the same thing. It sounds like utter nonsense to me--a square circle.

Either magic items are: A. Useful or B. Useless.

...

You can balance a game so that no-one has magic items. You can balance a game so that everyone has a certain expected amount of magic at any given level. You can't make a game where magic is both useful and makes no difference to a character's power. It's a contradition in terms.

I think you can achieve approximate balance if magic items give the characters options which need to be powered by their existing abilities.

For example, say a fighter has a per-encounter power that enables him to deal +2d6 damage to an opponent. Perhaps he gets a sword that fills a 5'-square with flames that deal 3d6 fire damage if he expends his +2d6 per encounter power. While the sword gives the fighter a bit more flexibility (he can be more effective against swarms, enemies vulnerable to fire, or with a high AC compared to their Reflex defence), it isn't much more powerful than his base ability, nor does it allow him to use both the sword's flaming power and his base ability in the same encounter.

Of course, the fighter with the magic sword is more powerful than the fighter without. However, I don't think the difference is so great that it is unbalancing.

 

[Green Knight]

I think that some of the 24/7 shopping came about because of the expectation that PCs would have a certain amount of magical items to "meet" the challanges they were going to face. A shop eliminates the need for a DM to provide an item specifically usable by a PC.

True. But I suspect it also came about because there needs to be an explanation as to where all the magic items the PC's find and get rid of go. They're not the only adventurers in the world, after all, so they're not the only ones trying to pawn off a pile of +1 swords. And the average town blacksmith can't afford even a +1 sword. And more powerful items are way beyond his price range. So who can buy those magic weapons as the PC's level? The magic shop owners, of course, who deal in magic items of all stripes, and who have the necessary funds to be able to buy all the PC's excess crap. Even the hideously expensive +4 Flaming Longsword the PC's trying to get rid of now that he found a +5 Vorpal Flaming Burst Longsword.

But anyway, I agree with a previous poster who said that adventures and monsters should be geared towards fighting PC's who aren't completely overburdened with a ridiculous number of magic items. Remove the need for an excessive amount of magic items, and you remove the need to give the PC's an obscene amount of magic items. Tighten the spigot, and turn the gushing river that's inundating the PC's with magic items into a dribble, and suddenly magic items will be what they should be. Precious items which, once found, you wouldn't want to part with. And if they all function like legacy items, increasing in power as the PC levels, then you reduce the need for dropping dozens of magic items in the PC's hands even further. And best of all, the players will be able to develop a real sense of attachment to their equipment, as its history will be tied to their character.

 

[Nebulous]

Mind you, if you only ever use one magic sword, that does create the problem of what to do with all the other magic swords you find over the course of advancing from 8th to 30th level.

Hmm... maybe your sword must consume other swords to become more powerful....

If characters level as fast as i think they do in 4e (by the default rules anyway) you might have less time to actually acquire a boatload of magic swords.

Tighten the spigot, and turn the gushing river that's inundating the PC's with magic items into a dribble, and suddenly magic items will be what they should be. Precious items which, once found, you wouldn't want to part with. And if they all function like legacy items, increasing in power as the PC levels, then you reduce the need for dropping dozens of magic items in the PC's hands even further. And best of all, the players will be able to develop a real sense of attachment to their equipment, as its history will be tied to their character.

This is key i think. If the PC's want "stuff" (and they do, it's part of the game) maybe there is a better way to reward them. I'm not sure how WotC will address this but the Christmas Tree Syndrome is my most hated aspect of 3rd edition.

I just hope the christmas tree effect is truely gone, not just disguised as feats, powers etc.

Hmm. Undoubtedly there will be some rollover. How much remains to be seen. But i sure don't want magic "powers" floating around for no apparent reason other than game balance.

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

It's funny that since I haven't been posting on here hardly at all in the last few years, I was completely unaware of the Christmas Tree syndrome, but I really understand what people are getting at.

I also hope magic items are made more precious. I ran a game once where I said that each player (starting at 10th level) could only have three magic items, but I dropped all the limitations on the cost of stacking powers onto a single item. So one character had a +2 flaming sword that also gave them +4 strength, or something.

It worked reasonably well, and with a bit more work could have been an even better sytem, but it doesn't solve the actual problem.

I really, really like the idea of legacy items, especially if they improve with level AND with character based achievement.

 

[Baby Samurai]

In the latest podcast the 7th level human fighter has no magical items whatsoever.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I wonder how they are reducing the Christmas Tree effect. It isn't enough to rebalance monsters to allow people to be effective against them without a boatload of "standard" magical items, it's also neccessary to somehow limit the available and/or power of such items.

A general idea I had: Magical Items that broaden a characters ability are usually interested, but not neccessarily making him more powerful. Items that just add to an existing ability are alway powerful, and quickly become a neccessarity.

So, here are some examples of items that come to my mind:
Flaming Longsword: The Longsword deals fire and slashing damage. If an opponent doesn't have resistances to both, he will suffer the fully rolled damage, otherwise, he uses the weakest of the two resistances. Once encounter(?), the wielder can make a fullround action and throw a small fireball (Weapons regular melee damage, but fire only) with a 20 ft range increment. The longsword sheds light like a Torch, and can be used to set inflammible items on fire.

Yes, the weapon is a bit more powerful then a regular longsword. But mostly, it just gives more flexibility. You don't rely on its bonuses to be effective.


Gauntlets of Ogre Power/Belt of Giant Strength:
Gauntles of Ogre Power add a +2 bonus to Strength, but don't increase your Strength beyond 16.
Belt of Giant Strength add a +4 bonus to Strength, but don't increase your Strength beyond 18.

These Gauntlets of Ogre Power are not neccessary for most Fighters, but they serve well to compensate weaknesses of other characters. A regular Fighter can spend his money on other items (if items can still be bought that easily), maybe an Headband of Illithid Intellect...

It is a bit of a throwback to earlier editions - if I am not mistaken, earlier versions of the Gauntles increased your strength to a fixed amount - but from a balancing perspective, they will probably work a lot better. They don't make your own statistics a non-issue.

An interesting question is to figure out how you eliminate the need for "pure +x" weapons (or wands), which are apparently still part of the 4th edition. Maybe they just compensate a low BAB/Caster Level?). How about Cloak of Resistances +x or Ring of Protection +x? (Maybe they work entirely different now? Cloaks protect against energy damage, Rings protect against spells?)

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I just hope the christmas tree effect is truely gone, not just disguised as feats, powers etc.

I thought the Christmas Tree effect was primarily related to the fact that it was magical items that people had to rely on instead of their own abilities.

But you could me thinking:
Feats like the Weapon Focus Chain (especially with Melee Weapon Mastery) might actually be very similar to this, despite being less obvious. It's a batch of bonuses that make you better at your primary stick - so much in fact, that you might turn out ineffective without them.

I remember reading somewhat about there being less feat chains, so maybe there is an indication that such things are also addressed.