Magic's system...for magic system

[Dannyalcatraz]

More musings:

Race would also grant you at least one "spell"...some races (tricksy halflings?) might get 2 or more.

Nephilim (equivalent to 3.5's Planetouched) get 1 colorless and one colored mana of choice- dependent upon background- and one spell.

Elf 2-3 spells
Dwarf 1 spell
Human 1 spell
Orc 1 spell
Gnome 2 spells
Halfling 2-3 spells

Racial spells themselves would probably be 1 mana cost spells.

OBVIOUSLY certain spells simply wouldn't work for this idea- Dark Ritual springs immediately to mind, as would most other mana boosters.

Cards that in M:tG would cost you spells (by discarding, for instance) would prevent you from casting them during a given combat. Those that would make you lose control of a card or spell would require some thought...

And, of course, there's the non-spell combat system to consider.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Aus Snow, when you said "implied play style", were you referring to the size & complexity of the rules? If so, I just want to reiterate I've got TFT:ItL and Lost Worlds in mind as I'm doing this: rules-medium, if you will.

Or are you talking about the combat-centric nature of the game?

 

[Umbran]

Spells would require mana, including typed mana. How much & what kind of mana your PC could access & channel would be determined by class & level.

Obviously, it would require more than just breaking open the packs and using what you find, but...we're a smart bunch...with lots of cards, I suspect.

Thoughts?

My first thought is: too many fiddly bits.

M:tG gets away with having really complex resource management because it is, at its heart, a complex resource management game. When you sit down to the activity, that's what you're agreeing to do, and there isn't a whole lot else to do during the game.

The same cannot be said for RPGs. While having some resource management elements is good, as they force characters to make tough choices some times, when you go to far you start bogging them down in thinking about the resources, instead of how unutterably cool what they just did was.

Can such a system be built? Sure - I think someone around here already did it. But do you want to use it in the midst of everything else in a typical RPG? Of this, I am skeptical.

 

[Aus_Snow]

Aus Snow, when you said "implied play style", were you referring to the size & complexity of the rules? If so, I just want to reiterate I've got TFT:ItL and Lost Worlds in mind as I'm doing this: rules-medium, if you will.

Or are you talking about the combat-centric nature of the game?

Neither, per se.

More, the assumed, typical mode of play I suppose. Like, if you read nearly any PHB and/or DMG out there. See what they say, or imply at the very least, about what generally happens in D&D campaigns. I mean, even the rules themselves suggest a great deal of it.

What I was thinking of (and still am, when I have a moment spare... that isn't taken up with forum posting! ) is domain management, really. So, shades of Birthright. Some definite wargame echoes. A little high level old school D&D, to some extent. In particular, Wizardly high level old school D&D.

Or something.

But yes, planeswalkers, managing their domains. As the "fluff" of early MtG - minimal though it was - more or less had it. It would make for a very different RPG experience, granted. Nothing at all like D&D that most gamers would recognise.

That's pretty much what I was, in my own vague way, going on about. Basically, rather than starting from a D&D-like base and adding MtG, instead starting from a MtG base and creating an RPG to "fit" (er, not quite).

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

My first thought is: too many fiddly bits.

M:tG gets away with having really complex resource management because it is, at its heart, a complex resource management game.

I agree 100%- I know that parts of the original game would have to be simplified and outright changed- Fireball can't be allowed to target ALL enemies; Dark Ritual is not going to work- but a TTRPG in which things can happen simultaneously (including REAL counterspelling) has some appeal, I think.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

But yes, planeswalkers, managing their domains. As the "fluff" of early MtG - minimal though it was - more or less had it. It would make for a very different RPG experience, granted. Nothing at all like D&D that most gamers would recognise.

While it's a good idea, and one I think could support an RPG quite nicely*, I really wasn't thinking pure spellcasters only- I really did want the grunts in there as well.




* Actually did something like that using WotC's The Primal Order books...had a blast!

 

[Aus_Snow]

While it's a good idea, and one I think could support an RPG quite nicely*, I really wasn't thinking pure spellcasters only- I really did want the grunts in there as well.

Ah well. Hope that goes well. And if by some chance I do happen to think of anything that might be useful for that, I'll be posting it here.

Actually did something like that using WotC's The Primal Order books...had a blast!

Yes! Exactly. Was thinking of those exact books too, must have been just yesterday.

 

[Umbran]

I agree 100%- I know that parts of the original game would have to be simplified and outright changed- Fireball can't be allowed to target ALL enemies; Dark Ritual is not going to work

Oh, I wasn't thinking about individual spells. I was thinking mana management. It's one of the tihngs that makes M:tG interesting as a card game, but woudl be abysmal in an RPG.

Several colors of mana, each with different sources that can be enhanced or reduced (and thus has to be accounted for) separately? Spells that mix and match what mana they use? And how much of a given deck was devoted to mana and mana metamagic, rather than actually interacting with the foe?

A power-gamer's dream. Really, M:tG is all about the optimizations. But at the gaming table, it may become a nightmare. Not to say it cannot be done, but... I consider it like a genre conversion, comic books to movies, say. It can be done, but the translation often loses the thing that made the original good, wthout replacing it with something equally good.

but a TTRPG in which things can happen simultaneously (including REAL counterspelling) has some appeal, I think.

Careful there - M:tG manages this largely by having the number of players be small - you can keep "simultaneity" straight when there's only two people, and they don't really act simultaneously. Do this with six players and a GM all who could potentially muck in "simultaneously", and things get ugly right quick.

 

[karlindel]

I once played in a short lived campaign that used Magic as the primary mechanic. It was similar to the M:tG computer game, and characters' stats included their life total, deck size, beginning hand size, max hand size, drawing additional cards, and the like. It was fun playing as planeswalkers for awhile, and combats consisted of playing a game of Magic. Decks were built from the GM's cards, and among other things the players explored to find new spells to add to their decks.

I think you'll have to be careful in integrating Magic into an RPG to figure out the right balance for you and your players. It is easy to let the Magic game take over the campaign. Alternately, you could use Magic as more inspirational for the magic system, and thus end up with an RPG that had some callbacks to the game (there are many Magic worlds that would make great RPG settings).

There are a lot of questions that need to be answered to integrate Magic into an RPG. For example:
How long does it take to bring a land into play (presumably using some ritual or calling to make its mana flow available to you)?
How long does it take to draw mana from your lands? To cast a spell?
Do summoned monsters permanently die when defeated? If not, how long must you wait before summoning them again?
How do you translate hp and attacks into the attacks, damage and saves/defenses of Magic creatures?
How do special abilities translate?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Several colors of mana, each with different sources that can be enhanced or reduced (and thus has to be accounted for) separately? Spells that mix and match what mana they use? And how much of a given deck was devoted to mana and mana metamagic, rather than actually interacting with the foe?

and

How long does it take to bring a land into play (presumably using some ritual or calling to make its mana flow available to you)?
How long does it take to draw mana from your lands? To cast a spell?
Do summoned monsters permanently die when defeated? If not, how long must you wait before summoning them again?
How do you translate hp and attacks into the attacks, damage and saves/defenses of Magic creatures?
How do special abilities translate?

Mana sources will me streamlined: so far, Race, Class and possibly certain items or spells themselves (like Burnt Offering).

Mana from land- the actual environment- is not currently "approved" but could be worked into the game if I can find a good way to do it. One option: such mana is dependent upon the DM, who will determine what kind of land the encounter is in, and such mana as it provides would be available to each character. Essentially, land becomes a "global enchantment".

Still thinking about critters. Currently, my mindset is summoned creatures may only survive an encounter, they are not real. Meanwhile manufactured magic items- including artifact creatures- stick around as long as you tie up your mana in them. They may be broken, requiring repair, or scrapped, freeing up a PC's mana for other devices.

Special abilities of PCs are innate, not directly linked to spells, but may be enhanced or affected by them.

Careful there...

I've been in some big, multiplayer M:tG tournaments in which, for instance, a single spell got Forked 7 times, so I know what you're warning about.

I'm thinking about several options: a SPEED attribute similar to HERO's or war-games like SFB; a "stack" limit of a single spell (which has implications for counterspelling) or 2 max; simply letting available mana be the deciding factor.