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Main differences between 3.5E, 4E, and Pathfinder?

Mercurius

Legend
I haven't played D&D in five years or so and am planning on starting up a once-a-month game with three other "casual gamers." I am most likely going to run 4E, but I'm intrigued by Pathfinder, which seems to be the equivalent of a "3.7E" game. I downloaded the Pathfinder PDF but haven't had a chance to pour over it. What are the main differences between 3.5E, Pathfinder and 4E? Could someone spell it out for me?

And please, no "Edition Wars." I personally don't mind a bit of mud-slinging, but I don't want to lose this thread, so (try to) keep it friendly. In other words, I'm NOT looking for "Pathfinder is better than 4E" or "4E stomps Pathfinder" or "3.5 4 Evar". I want to know how they differ. Feel free to tell me what you prefer, just keep it civil.
 

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I haven't played D&D in five years or so and am planning on starting up a once-a-month game with three other "casual gamers." I am most likely going to run 4E, but I'm intrigued by Pathfinder, which seems to be the equivalent of a "3.7E" game. I downloaded the Pathfinder PDF but haven't had a chance to pour over it. What are the main differences between 3.5E, Pathfinder and 4E? Could someone spell it out for me?

And please, no "Edition Wars." I personally don't mind a bit of mud-slinging, but I don't want to lose this thread, so (try to) keep it friendly. In other words, I'm NOT looking for "Pathfinder is better than 4E" or "4E stomps Pathfinder" or "3.5 4 Evar". I want to know how they differ. Feel free to tell me what you prefer, just keep it civil.

The focus on minis: You could get by without in 3.5, but in 4E it is more of a stretch.

Team Tactics: Are much more explicit in 4E. Good players in 3.5 always came up with tactics, but in 4E it's coded into the class design.

Monster Creation: Easier in 4E, IMO, at the sacrifice of "universal consistency"
 

The focus on minis: You could get by without in 3.5, but in 4E it is more of a stretch.
Maybe true. I've always found 3E nearly impossible to use without minis, so I can't agree with the first part, but knowing placement is a MUST in 4E. Graph paper can do, but prepare for a lot of erasing.

Team Tactics: Are much more explicit in 4E. Good players in 3.5 always came up with tactics, but in 4E it's coded into the class design.
true. Team tactics are a must in 4E. In 3E, there are some characters that can get by with doing things on their own.

Monster Creation: Easier in 4E, IMO, at the sacrifice of "universal consistency"
All monsters follow the same rules. But they are not all PCs. Monsterswork differently than PCs. A GM can run a game with monsters, then play a game as a PC and it will feel different beyond the same basic rules.

Ease to GM: 4E is much more GM friendly, going with the RAW. It does not take as long to create a character, set up a trap, or distribute the appropriate amount of treasure.

Class balance: 4E is supposed to be designed around the idea that every class can do something at every level. In 3E there are often times when a spellcaster has nothing to do but load a crossbow and shoot. YMMV.

Ease of introduction: 4E is more friendly to casual gamers. It is easier to learn and easier in function and exection. 3E by mid to high levels becomes very bogged down (Rage+Bard's song stat boost+ belt of giant strength+enlarge then someone casts dispel magic and dispels the girdle then someone casts bull's strength and you are wielding a 2-handed weapon).

Magical Items: 3E is heavy with the need of magical items. If you choose to have a low-magic campaign, you will need to readjust CRs and so forth appropriately. 4E is less magical item heavy. You need them, like in 3E, but not as many. A fighter, for instance, will not need a golf bag full of a variety of weapons to bypass Damage Reduction (/cold iron, /magic, /silver, /adamantium, /good, /evil, et al.)

Simulationists vs. Gamists: 3E is more for simulationists. Like all D&D, it glosses over things to make them easier, but things like a complex grapple mechanic, jump rules, powers that can be used consistantly are all closer to realism. 4E goes the more gamist rout, sacrificing realism for ease of play and 'fun'. Characters have powers that can be used by the encounter. That is done for game balance, but raises the question "How often can I do this, really?" Its an abstraction.

Pathfinder: It is still in the works but is attempting to improve on the existing 3E while making it backwards compatable. Kay factors include - balancing the original classes with later classes, especially in the department of getting something at every level; improving high-level play to make it manegable beyond 10-12; making NPC creation easier for the GM; and so on. The Alpha document is out there and is free, and Beta is on its way (or maybe that's out now?). The finalized new rules will be ready in a year. Pathfinder is meant to replace teh D&D Player's Handbook and the Dungeonmaster'guide.
 
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4E characterization is much less dependent on your build and more on what you do. Also, there are less ways to truly "gimp" a character by making an incorrect choice. Play is less swingy, in my mind.

3.5 has an enormous variety of options, but many of them are stinky, and serve more as a trap for those who try to use them. Monster creation can be tough, and making NPCs can be time consuming. High level 3E play is generally regarded as tough.

Pathfinder sticks strongly to 3.5 in some respects, and diverges widely in others. I personally don't regard it as very backwards compatible but I believe this is a somewhat controversial issue, and many others think it is perfectly fine for compatibility purposes. In general, you'll have pretty much the same strengths and weaknesses of 3.5.

Both games are good, with differing ups and downs, truly. 4E is going to have the most material produced for it going forward, but if you don't mind scrounging through used bookstores/Ebay/whatever there is a veritable ton of old 3E stuff you could pick up (probably more than you could ever play through)
 

The focus on minis: You could get by without in 3.5, but in 4E it is more of a stretch.

Team Tactics: Are much more explicit in 4E. Good players in 3.5 always came up with tactics, but in 4E it's coded into the class design.

Monster Creation: Easier in 4E, IMO, at the sacrifice of "universal consistency"

He said no edition wars.
 


4E is going to have the most material produced for it going forward,

I question whether that is true.

I'm sticking with 3e and Pathfinder. Going forward I expect to be spending 50+ a month still on merchandise.

Paizo alone is going to be producing 12 APs and 6 modules a year, not counting their companion and chronicle lines. Kobold Quarterly is producing 4 magazines a year. Necromancers, a year from now will be producing 3e material that is Pathfinder compatible. And there are others I have seen, especially PDF publishers that will continue with their lines.

Of course the point about cheaper older material is also equally valid. I have been picking up several books on Ebay recently at very reasonable prices (new books for $5 or under). In some ways it is the best of both worlds at the moment for those not converting. Lots of new material and cheap older material to boot.
 

One key difference, IMO, between the editions is the continuity question. 4e, for better or worse, changes many of the basic assumptions about the game and the world in which the game is located. The terminology one uses to talk both about the characters and their place in the world is different. Some of it is the gamist elements that so define the system (I was reading through a PbP and noticed the DM was describing the distances in squares - "The monster stands 3 squares from you, glaring.") Others are just changes to the cosmology (i.e. Eladrins) that mean that two people could be using the exact same words in a coversation and be talking right past each other.
 

I posted this in a discussion on whether 4e is for casual gamers, but these points apply here as well:

3e emphasized rules and system mastery (and this has been stated by Monte Cook and numerous times during the lead-in to 3e), and gives a staggering array of options at character generation, with some options being clearly much better than others. Its the job of the 3e player to discover what options let him do his preferred "schtick" best, and then its to his advantage to use that "schtick" all the time, for every encounter or applicable situation. Also, mechanics of the 3e game were complex, and required frequent referencing or debates were inevitable (grappe, AoO, bonus stacking, etc). 3e will therefore appeal to gearheads (I used to be one of them) and is a toolkit approach that will appeal to folks who like to tinker (at least as long as they don't stray far from the assumptions used to make 3e, like CR, wealth, magic level, etc). The problem is, once the character is made in 3e, the number of options a character has to deal with a situation are extremely limited, and based entirely on his build. Also, because the game is more build-centric, I noticed a strong trend in the 5 years I played 3e for player to focus on build to the exclusion of character development and story because the game rewards this tactic so strongly, such that many 3e games I played in (and unfortunately I'm guilty of running one like this too when 3e came out) became dungeon crawls with a series of loosely interconnected encounters where mechanical grinding through combats and loot acquisition was the entire focus.

I've read through the Pathfinder Alpha rules, and played in 4 adventures using the Pathfinder rules (1st, 6th, 9th, and 13th levels), so I have some experience with the rules, although I haven't DMed a PF game. IMO, Pathfinder dials the power on 3.5 D&D up to 12, complicates the classes even more, and adds new levels of mechanical system mastery. Pathfinder also does nothing to address many of the core issues of 3.5; such as magic item dependence, rules-centric gameplay, high prep time, poor scaling of power with level, dominance of casters over all other classes, and assumed magic levels (wealth per level), to name but a few. Folks that like 3.5 will likely love Pathfinder- it adds new levels of complexity and customization, but to me and my group, its at the cost of playability and customizability.

4e has a completely different set of design parameters and assumptions. 4e gives more limited choices at character creation, but few to none of those choices suck or are suboptimal. Immediately, the onus in 4e is off mechanical system mastery, and more focused on HOW to use your powers effectively during play. Its still system mastery to a degree, but it produces a very different feel than 3e (in fact, it feels more like 1e/2e to me, paritally for this reason). 4e mechanics are also more streamlined and simple, and don't require frequent book checks (check out 3e grapple vs 4e grab- they do the same thing, but 4e is MUCH simpler). Characters don't really have a "schtick" in 4e based on their feats, spells, etc- their "schtick" is based more on class. The guy who is a dead-eye shot with a bow and sneaky? Ranger. The guy who layeth the smackdown on enemies and protects the back rank? Fighter. The difference here is 4e characters have more tools in their arsenals (in the form of powers) to preform their schtick, so it isn't as repetitive or boring. Because powers don't really synergize together like 3e feats, skills, or bonus stacking/buffing, the game plays faster, smoother, scales through levels better, and is MUCH easier for a casual gamer to pick up. But 4e also has hidden layers of complexity during play- such as understanding how to maneuver opponents into situations that put them at disadvantages, so you can follow up with an encounter or daily power on them that has a higher chance of success. That appeals to us veteran gamers too. Plus, 4e gives us a different kind of toolkit- one that isn't so rigid or mechancial as 3e, but relies more on DM judgement and what would be cool. I find its actually easier for me to use 4e for worldbuilding than it was 3e. But then again, I might be weird. :p
 

There are many differences and many similarities. I think if you understood how any of the d20 system worked, you will be able to understand both systems, though as always, the devil is in the detail.

Basically, the core idea is still this:
Roll a d20, preferably high, to resolve any game interaction.
Characters have classes.
Classes have attacks, defensive values (AC, Reflex, Will, Fortitude), skills and feats and hit points. Also, there are some class-specific aspects for each character, and here you probably find the biggest variety, often related to resource management.

3E approach to the "class-specific" aspects is to often introduce class-specific subsystems.
Examples:
the Barbarians class specific subsystems is Rage, and to a lesser extent Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense and Damage Reduction.
Rogue has Sneak Attack, later some Rogue feat-like abilities, and Uncanny Dodge.
Rangers have spells and combat styles.
Fighters have bonus feats.
Wizards have spells (of the arcana variant)
Sorcerers also have spells, but use a different way to resolve spell

Each of these class-specific subsystems makes the entire game experience for each class very unique, and it also tends to reward a certain "rules mastery" for each class - you might love playing Wizards, but have trouble playing Clerics or Rogues, until you spend a similar amount of time learning the fineprints of their subsystems.

Pathfinder continues to go along these lines. It makes the sub-systems more intricate - Barbarians get Rage Points to fuel special abilities with Rage, Monk gets Ki Points for similar purposes, Paladins get Aura abilities and so on.



4E goes another route. It introduces a basic "power" system for every class. The structure is identical, so if you switch the class, you don't need to learn a new way to manage your resources. The powers are described from simple building blocks. Think of the start of each 3E spell description (the list of level, range, saving throw, spell resistance, duration, casting time), but shorter. The mechanical terms that describe what a power does are also well-defined and allow very short and understandable descriptions of powers. Keywords are - well, key. ;) It doesn't take long to know what a spell or a martial maneuver (exploit) does.
The devil is not in the detail, but in the composition - how do you use your own powers and that of your comrades in an encounter. Understanding the individual power might be easy, but how you use it with most tactical advantage is difficult.

Of course, the introduction of more group tactics in 4E doesn't mean it didn't exist previously. But there seem to be more effects relying on this. For example, a solid tactic for Rogues in 3E was to get into flanking position - no surprise. It's still a solid tactic in 4E. But 4E adds more situation where a Rogue can try to get the required "combat advantage" against his foes, since powers can add such conditions to enemies, making the Rogue more flexible on the battle-field - if the party figures out how to use these powers to best advantage and against the right targets.

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Another difference might be the so called difference along the "GNS" scheme (sometimes controversely discussed on EN World").
4E is basically a more Gamist and slightly more Narravist system, at the expense of Simulation.
3E is also Gamist in many regards (the whole notion of levels and hit points alone, but also in the notions of class balance.), but has a stronger "simulationist" streak.

Example for "Gamist" vs "Simulationist":
Monsters and NPCs in 3E follow the same rules for player characters. "Pure" monsters without levels don't use class levels, but type hd (which might be not entirely consistent from some point of view). The HD by type link a types attacks, saves and hit points and in a certain way is supposed to "simulate" the difference between an animal-like creature and a dragon-like or an undead creature.
4E gives up the notion of tying these attributes to type. While type and subtypes still exist, monster abilities are defined by their metagame role in a combat encounter. A monster that is to use a lot of ranged attacks uses hit points by level for an Artillery Monster, while a monster that strikes from hiding is a Lurker. An Orc (as a special type of monster) is not automatically a Brute or a Soldier, but he can be any of it, depending on what is purpose is in combat.
The underlying philosophy here is more "Gamist", because it focuses on the usability aspect when playing the game, as opposed to simulate how such a creature might actually "grow" up.
Using the type HD in 3E, you could easily imagine that a monster "grows" these HD with age, and they really represent some physical qualities. Dragons are tough beasts, therefore they get d12. Feys have a weak and soft physique, therefore they get d6. Undeads are typically mindless and unskilled, but tough, therefore they get d12s but a low BAB, and so on.


An example of "Narrative" vs "Simulation" is the power systems.
3E assumes that martial abilities are "mundane", and therefore are basically repeatable, even if they might require some setup (you can cleave only if you kill a foe, but you can surely do it all the time). Magic, being outside of our realm of experience, can use any arbitrary system to be resolved, and still be considered "simulationist" - we can make up flavor text that makes sense, if required. Traditionally, 3E uses the Vancian approach to magic which implies that casters have to prepare spells only a limited number of times per day, and when cast, the preperation is "gone".

4E introduces a vancian-like power system for all classes, even the "mundane" ones like the martial characters.
This can either mean the world of 4E is very strange and hard to "get into" - because we have to assume that a Fighter for some reason can perform a specific combat maneuver only once per day (no matter how hard he tries) - and he might even be aware of it (just like a 3E wizard knows when he's out of spell prepations for a spell). Or we have to at least assume that martial powers are magical (which might be easier, even if not satisfying for everyone).
To avoid this, you can leave the "simulation" stance and thing narratively - the character could in theory do his favored maneuver all the time if the opportunity arises, but the character has no control about the opportunities - but the player of the character does, by using a game resource - the power. (That's the core of it - you can spin a lot of extranous stuff to explain certain aspects, but this should do for now.)

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From my point of view, one major change in 4E is the goal to make the game very usable.
You can pick up the game at any time, any level, and it will be playable with little or no preparation (once you got the basic stuff down).
There is a lot of emergent complexity in the way "in-encounter" tactics might work, but to start, there are not so many things you have to worry about.

You do not have to wade through a a 4 page spell list to figure out what to slot and whether to cast it after breakfast (or for breakfeast - Heroes Feast), before entering the dungeon, or during combat. The DM doesn't have to skim through rulebooks to figure out what the monsters actually can do with spell-like abilities or spells they might have listed in their stat block.
Of course, this sacrifices some details (like the innocent low level spell available to some monsters that will not get used in combat, but might be used as a twist or hook for a story.) But from my perspective, the usability is more important.
 

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