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Main differences between 3.5E, 4E, and Pathfinder?

In 4e, let's say you need a powerful hulking brute (minotaur wrestler) at level 12. To be an appropriate challenge, let's say his STR should be about 30 and he's a large-sized creature. Three levels ago you designed a plodding brute of a dinosaur that had no noteworthy abilities except being massively strong. It's a gargantuan creature with a STR of 30, appropriate for a 9th level challenge.

That's awesome. I have a picture in my head of a minotaur wrestling a dinosaur to the ground.

BUT, if you are a numbers-transparent, simulation guy, this makes no numeric sense. And even that's because sim-folks want the numbers to represent something more than the abstract.

This does make sense to me, because you decided that the minotaur wrestler should be able to take down a plodding brute of a dinosaur - that is, you made the minotaur higher level.
 

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While I feel this sounds like a subtle edition war statement I felt the need to respond.

I think the problem comes from the fact that in the 30 years people have played the game there always was rules dealing with roleplaying. This has caused an ingrained understanding of if you cannot directly figure it out you can make a die roll to explain it.

Now we come to 4E and that paradigm has changed. No longer do you have a die roll to explain certain things. In many respects there are no hard and fast rules to define them. In fact they have to be arbitrated.

Hmm, I have to disagree with you here. There were no hard rules for roleplaying in 1e or 2e- that was a 3e thing. The closest thing was Etiquette NWP, which gave you an idea of what could be said or done in a situation that would be appropriate, but it wasn't possible for the die roll to take the place of roleplaying. Compare with 3e, where Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate can be used by RAW to simply be a die roll to make an NPC do something. Ironically enough, 3e was the first time it was possible to take roleplaying and turn it into roll-playing (and yes, I did game with some folks who did this, ugh). 4e still retains these "roleplaying" skills, but their importance has been lessened, since a single die roll won't be likely to make an NPC behave a certain way in skill challenges (if you go by the RAW for 4e), wheras in 3e, a single high Diplomacy roll could do just that by RAW. Of course, I don't use the social skills this way, and use a success or failure as a slight modification of how the NPC behaves based on the player's RP of the situation. ;)

So I'm not sure what you're thinking of when you say 1e/2e had hard rules for roleplaying. The only things I can think of are you might be interpreting that wat are the paladin's code, morale rules, or the NPC interaction table used when the party first runs into a group of NPCs (which IME wasn't used all that much- DM's pretty much just did what made sense for a situation). So yes, DMs and players had to rely more on their freeform RPG muscles in previous editions, but I fail to see how that is a bad thing.

A classic example of this is training a horse to do tricks. In all past editions in particular 3.X there were defined rules in how to do that. Now in 4E it is not so well defined. This leaves room for interpretation on how you wish to approach the situation.

4E was the first edition in many years of D&D to move away from providing rules on roleplaying and focus solely on roll-playing. It focuses heavly on tactical style play, which for many is a good thing. Those who are not fans of it feel it speaks to them more like Warhammer (the tactical game). To each their own of course.

But lets rememember if for 30+ years you are told one way of doing something, and then suddenly it changes on you. You will probably be resistant as well. In most cases a factioning will occur.

True enough, 4e doesn't have hard rules for animal training, although it is handled under the Nature skill. This is left up to the DM's judgement, which IMO is where it belongs. Let me try to explain in this case why less is better...

One of the things that always bugged me about 3e was that it tried to be everything to everybody by having hard rules for almost every situation...but in doing so, it actually limited DM and player options. If the DM wanted to change the way something worked in his game, this could be met by howls of indignation from players of "thats not how the PHB/DMG says to handle this!" And yes, even among buddies, I have two that are rules lawyers that did just that. IME using your animal training case, 3e presented a list of tricks the animal could learn, and players cherry-picked from that list what they wanted their animal to be able to do based on what gave the biggest in-game advantages. It might work, but its also rather boring- and people tended to stick with the list and not invent many of their own tricks, as they did in previous editions of D&D where it was less codified. For example in 1e and 2e, I have DMed where we've had five animal companions over the years where we used DM fiat and judgement for what the animal could do and learn, and it played MUCH better in the campaign than the codified 3e rules. YMMV, of course.

What I'm trying to say is the more you codify rules for the game, the more limiting you tend to make the game because people tend to think along lines of what already is spelled out for them. 3e tried to reduce DM judgement and fiat by having so many hard rules in the game, and IMO, suffered for it. Apparently many people and the 4e designers felt the same way, and decided DM fiat and judgement isn't such a bad thing, and in fact is what makes this game so fun and magical. 4e does have a codified combat system (as did every edition of D&D to this point), but its far less codified out of combat, which gives more player freedom, so I honestly have a hard time seeing where people say 4e= roll-playing or that its impossible to roleplay in 4e???? We've got the same thing with 4e we did with 1e/2e, where strict role-playing mechanics simply didn't exist. Thats a good thing to me.
 
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In 4e, let's say you need a powerful hulking brute (minotaur wrestler) at level 12. To be an appropriate challenge, let's say his STR should be about 30 and he's a large-sized creature. Three levels ago you designed a plodding brute of a dinosaur that had no noteworthy abilities except being massively strong. It's a gargantuan creature with a STR of 30, appropriate for a 9th level challenge.
Well, you can do that if you want, but notice that 4e makes no claim about what STR scores are appropriate for a given creature. Monsters don't even have to have damage output that matches their strength, though it's a good idea to get in the right ballpark. The STR score and the creature's "crushing embrace" damage have no connection in 4e.

Which probably drives some people nuts, but...

BUT, if you are a numbers-transparent, simulation guy, this makes no numeric sense. And even that's because sim-folks want the numbers to represent something more than the abstract.
I guess I'll take your word that some people feel that way , but why does it make no numeric sense? What implies that a level 12 monster in some way shouldhave higher strength than a level 9 monster? Our wrestling minotaur could easily be dealing more damage than the mere brute due to training and skill.

I mean, really, when you get down to it, you could easily see a level 12 monk who has the same STR score as a level 9 fighter, and nobody would blink at that in 3rd edition -- so why does it suddenly seem like a problem when the monsters do it? I thought 3rd edition was the one where monsters and PCs all use the same rules...

However, the core principle of 3E in monster creation has ALWAYS been... "compare it to other monsters of similar CR."
4e is actually the same rule, except we have a chart that explicitly says what the 'standard monster' numbers are at each level...
 

That's awesome. I have a picture in my head of a minotaur wrestling a dinosaur to the ground.
It wasn't a minotaur, but I think I saw that on King Kong.
This does make sense to me, because you decided that the minotaur wrestler should be able to take down a plodding brute of a dinosaur - that is, you made the minotaur higher level.
That's exactly what I mean! Thanks.
 

Having used both systems (and being an object oriented programmer, actually), I don't know that I really buy that argument. 'It allows you to build the exact monster you can imagine'? How so? The 3e system is the one that says "You can't add another feat to this monster unless you give it three more hit dice, which come with a dozen-odd HP and +2 attack bonus and a bunch of other stuff." It's 3rd edition that insists that a demon of X hit dice must have Y spell like abilities, whether they fit the concept or not, that a creature in full plate has a +8 armor bonus to AC, and provides zero guidelines for how much damage a new special ability should do.

4e is the system that says, "Get these critical numbers right; other than that, go crazy and do what you like".


Right general idea, some wrong specifics though.

1 under 3e you can give any monster you create more feats than its HD or levels would indicate. These are called bonus feats and in 3.5 are denoted with a (b) in the stat block. The monsters need not even qualify for the bonus feats' prereqs.

2 Demons have no required spell-like abilities, let alone a certain number per HD. They have some qualities in common and most of the ones in the MMs have lots of spell-like abilities, but it is not a requirement when creating a new one.

3 3e does say a creature wearing full plate gets +8 on its armor bonus and you expect something in full plate to have a certain amount of protection from the armor. In 4e even if the rules for making monsters/NPCs different from PCs would allow it, I think it would cause a wierd disconnect for a heavily armored monster/NPC to have an AC lower than a 1st level PC wearing the same armor unless there was some other explanation such as the NPC being comically clumsy and inept.

4 you are correct that 3e does not provide guidelines for damage from new special abilities, just guidelines for base natural weapon damage based on size.

3e has a number of inter-related mechanics so altering some have multiple consequences. In particular advancing by HD or level, or changing size, type, or ability scores cause changes in multiple aspects of a monster, some of which may not be desired. There are ways around this such as through templates or creating special abilities that apply changes only to the specific aspects you want changed.

3e allows you to do a lot of customization, though it is harder under the HD/class rules to cut out stuff and stick to the RAW than to add on features to a monster. For instance you can add sorcerer spell casting to a new monster without adding on full sorcerer levels, just look at aranea, driders, rakshasa, and dragons for examples of this being done.

The point that core 3e does not provide guidelines for end number appropriate ranges for various CRs is certainly valid though and IMO a useful innovation of 4e.
 

3e favored consistency, which some saw as being too unclear, complicated, or hard to tinker with. 4e favors ease of use, which some see as being too "dumbed-down" or lacking consistency. They both have their benefits, and they both have their downsides.
 
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3e monster creation was for obsessive germans who must have EVERYTHING IN ORDER EVERYTHING and demanded ten thousand little minute irritating rules to ensure everything was always perfectly consistent with one another, no matter how horrifyingly difficult it could make setting up a campaign.

4e monster creation is for pill-popping ADHD twitch-kids who can't focus on a piece of paper for five minutes and need to be able to string together a monster in seconds, irregardless of how stupid or abnormal it is, deciding that consistency belongs in the same place as their homework, ie the garbage.

Or, to put it another way...

3e favored consistency (or obsessiveness), 4e favors ease of use (or dumbed-down-ness)

Well I certainly give you high marks on the sweeping nature of your rudeness. Nonetheless, it is rudeness and you're no longer welcome in this thread.
 

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