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Main differences between 3.5E, 4E, and Pathfinder?

Really, all three are fine choices. Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is trying to sell you something. :) Which one would be best for you, however, depends on your own style of gaming...not just playing, but DMing as well. /snip

Hope this helps!

QFT. Very, very true.
 

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About the only thing there that's outside of combat is the "role plays his character well" other than item creation anyway.

That's pretty slim.

4e has quest awards. 4e has skill challenges. Both award xp. If traps in 3e count, then certainly these would.

Here, I'll take out the ones that only apply in combat for you :)



Table 33:
Common Individual Awards

Player has a clever idea 50-100
Player has an idea that saves the party 100-500
Player role-plays his character well* 100-200
Player encourages others to participate 100-200
. . .

*This award can be greater if the player character sacrifices some game advantage to role-play his character. A noble fighter who refuses a substantial reward because it would not be in character qualifies.

Table 34:
Individual Class Awards

Award
. . .

Priest
Per successful use of a granted power 100 XP
Spells cast to further ethos 100 XP/spell level*
Making potion or scroll XP value
Making permanent magical item XP value

Wizard
Spells cast to overcome . . . problems 50 XP/spell level
Spells successfully researched 500 XP/spell level
Making potion or scroll XP value
Making permanent magical item XP value

Rogue
Per successful use of a special ability 200 XP
Per gold piece value of treasure obtained 2 XP
. . .
 

Oh come on.

Table 33:
Common Individual Awards

Player has a clever idea 50-100 - probably combat related.
Player has an idea that saves the party 100-500 - How is this not combat related?
Player role-plays his character well* 100-200
Player encourages others to participate 100-200
. . .

*This award can be greater if the player character sacrifices some game advantage to role-play his character. A noble fighter who refuses a substantial reward because it would not be in character qualifies.

Table 34:
Individual Class Awards

Award
. . .

Priest
Per successful use of a granted power 100 XP - how many granted powers aren't combat related?
Spells cast to further ethos 100 XP/spell level* - How many spells aren't combat related?
Making potion or scroll XP value - I gave you this one.
Making permanent magical item XP value - I gave you this one.

Wizard
Spells cast to overcome . . . problems 50 XP/spell level - And this is not combat related?
Spells successfully researched 500 XP/spell level - Gave you this one
Making potion or scroll XP value - gave you this one
Making permanent magical item XP value - gave you this one.

Rogue
Per successful use of a special ability 200 XP - almost entirely combat related
Per gold piece value of treasure obtained 2 XP - and where does treasure come from if not combat?
. . .

Let's be serious shall we?
 

About the only thing there that's outside of combat is the "role plays his character well" other than item creation anyway.

Traps counted. Do you have a copy of "Tomb of Horrors", Hussar? If you do, have a look at the suggested XP award for clearing out the tomb, including the GP:XP ratio.

However, it is certainly the case in AD&D 1e that the majority of XP awards would be given for adventuring, by which I mean dungeon-delving.

D&D 3E gave XP for overcoming challenges - by either roleplaying, skill use or combat. It's just that most people didn't interpret the rules that way and only gave XP for combat.

Cheers!
 

Let's be serious shall we?

Good grief. I'm sitting here wondering just what your definition of D&D combat really is! Does it include a rogue sneaking past a sentry to climb the walls of a castle and pick a lock to open a door? Does it include a druid casting control winds to save a ship being tossed in a storm at sea? Does it include the casting of utility spells? Does it include a clever idea to save the party when an avalanche has buried them in snow?

There are tons of situations where these 2nd edition XP awards could come up that aren't at all based on combat, barring a really weird definition of combat. Do you really think the awards are that combat oriented? Or is there something else going on here?
 
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4th Edition

The main difference I see is that 4e is a little more explicit than previous editions as far as what's expected of you, both as a player and as a DM.

On the player side, if you're in -- for example -- the Defender role, it spells out exactly what that role means, and it's right up front how your class powers fit into that role. In 3.5 it was always a little bit mysterious, like the authors didn't want to just come right out and say, "Your job is to suck up attacks and occupy a small number of strong enemies." Some people think that makes the game MMORPG-ish, but I don't see it. It's not saying you can't do anything else; but having that information right up front means if I decide to give my fighter a more striker-ish build, I know how that's going to change the party mechanics. Or, for that matter, if we don't HAVE a defender, I can predict how that might affect the group.

On the DM side, 4e is much more up front about desired end results. In 3.5, you want to build a monster, you go through all this rigamarole with hit dice and type and attack bonuses and stats, and if you put in all the right ingredients, and if you turn the crank the right way, you'll probably get something that's kind of close to what you wanted.

In 4e it's just kind of "Level 12? AC 24, attack bonus 15, dadada, feel free to adjust those by a few points." It just tells you what the answer should be without worrying about how you get there.

Encounter design is kind of the same way -- you get your XP budget and a couple easy limit values (in terms of encounter level -- and thus XP budget -- relative to party level, and in terms of individual monster level relative to party level), and you build your encounter. There's no CR calculations to play with.

Similarly, the monsters themselves are clearly labeled as what they are -- artillery, soldiers, brutes, leaders -- rather than showing you their powers and waiting for you to work out what they're supposed to do in a group or what their tactics should be.

My one complaint is that there's a lack of flavor text on both monsters and PC abilities. I'd like it if monsters had a few paragraphs of fluff, but I understand the reasons they didn't include it.


Pathfinder

I only looked over Pathfinder for one afternoon, but here's my thoughts:

Pathfinder feels like 3.5 Only More So. In the effort to balance the original 3.5 core classes with later material, they've bogged the game down in ridiculous quantities of little fiddly bits.

For example, the bard: Just about every level, the bard learns a new type of bard song. Some of them are upgrades of previous songs, but most of them are just adding new options. Each race gets a shopping list of +1s and +2s, and many classes get the same.

What it adds up to is enhancing the worst part of 3.5 (in my opinion, at least) -- the huge amount of bookkeeping you need to do, both as a player and as a DM. You have a dozen little adders and bonuses to keep track of and forget to apply, many of them conditional; and you have a huge number of options for what to do with your action each round. You've only got five or six rounds in a combat, so it seems to me that 15 bardsong options is kind of overkill.

Even the old "easy" classes, like the barbarian, have been complexified. How does this strike you? Every day, your barbarian gets a certain number of Rage Points, and he can spend one to rage for one round, and then he can spend a few extra points to get additional special powers while raging... So the big dumb guy class now requires me to track points? If I wanted that I'd be playing a psion.

All the classes strike me that way -- Nothing is elegant or simple, rewarding cleverness. Everything is keeping track of uses and points and bonuses that all change on a round by round basis, and everyone has a list of class powers that puts the wizard to shame.

Don't get me wrong. I don't mind power lists. I like 4e's power system; it's elegant where Pathfinder is clunky. Probably this is more than partly due to 4e using a spell-description type listing rather than infinite reams of dense bullet-pointed text lists.

I guess I also have a sense, perhaps not well justified, that the reams of Pathfinder class powers don't hang together very well. There doesn't seem to be much synergy between various class abilities to allow the player to perform a particular job (unless that job is "deal damage"). I could be wrong on this one; like I say, it's just a feeling.

Anyway. If you liked 3.5, then Pathfinder is probably a solid system. It won't blow your socks off; it's nothing especially revolutionary. If you had some serious problems with 3.5, well... again, Pathfinder is nothing revolutionary.
 
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Oh come on.



Let's be serious shall we?

Certainly, let's see if I can answer some of your points. I don't have my books with me at the moment but I'll go from memory and be open to being corrected on errors.:)

Table 33:
Common Individual Awards

Player has a clever idea 50-100 - probably combat related. Plenty of clever ideas can come about outside of combat, including in roleplaying.
Player has an idea that saves the party 100-500 - How is this not combat related? Not all threats are combat.
Player role-plays his character well* 100-200
Player encourages others to participate 100-200 You missed this one.
. . .

*This award can be greater if the player character sacrifices some game advantage to role-play his character. A noble fighter who refuses a substantial reward because it would not be in character qualifies.

Table 34:
Individual Class Awards

Award
. . .

Priest
Per successful use of a granted power 100 XP - how many granted powers aren't combat related? Druid wildshape can be used outside of combat. Specialty priests had a wide range of granted powers.
Spells cast to further ethos 100 XP/spell level* - How many spells aren't combat related? Plenty. What is the combat use of speak with animals? Create water? Create food? Purify food and water? Speak with dead? Zone of truth? Detect magic? I'd have to look over the lists to remember what else was in 2e priest spells.
Making potion or scroll XP value - I gave you this one.
Making permanent magical item XP value - I gave you this one.

Wizard
Spells cast to overcome . . . problems 50 XP/spell level - And this is not combat related? Problems that are not foes? No they are not combat related.
Spells successfully researched 500 XP/spell level - Gave you this one
Making potion or scroll XP value - gave you this one
Making permanent magical item XP value - gave you this one.

Rogue
Per successful use of a special ability 200 XP - almost entirely combat related climbing walls, understand writings, pick pockets, find/remove traps, pick locks, hide in shadows, move silently, I believe bards also get extra languages, an influence others type ability outside of combat, music playing, and a lore type ability.
Per gold piece value of treasure obtained 2 XP - and where does treasure come from if not combat? Stealing it, making deals in game, trap filled vaults, being hired to do something, picking pockets, etc.
. . .
 

On the DM side, 4e is much more up front about desired end results. In 3.5, you want to build a monster, you go through all this rigamarole with hit dice and type and attack bonuses and stats, and if you put in all the right ingredients, and if you turn the crank the right way, you'll probably get something that's kind of close to what you wanted.

In 4e it's just kind of "Level 12? AC 24, attack bonus 15, dadada, feel free to adjust those by a few points." It just tells you what the answer should be without worrying about how you get there.


I wanted to briefly step in, to the defense of monster creation across the editions. There's a lot to like, and a few things to dislike, about both methods of getting this job done. Each game system rewards (or punishes) certain types of monster-builders differently.

3rd edition monster design is like object-oriented programming, where you create a monster "object" that is roughly defined by its type and subtype, and draws upon re-usable but standardized attack forms, feat progressions, and templates.

4th edition monster design is like balancing a budget. You have a set value at the end, and you get to tweak its component values (ability scores, hit points, attack options) up or down within a certain range, as long as your end balance remains relatively stable.

Both are perfectly well-suited for people who like to fiddle with the numbers.

3E's method is better suited for those who have a vast library of options, because it allows you to build the exact monster you can imagine. Because the numbers in the system are all interwoven, the monster you come up with will have abilities and power that make "sense" from a simulationist point of view. By "sense" I mean relative to other types of creatures you can build with the system. The downside is that the end result may not be playable at the level you're trying to target. Advancement rules somewhat make up for this, but they were never developed beyond the bare-bones approach we got in the core rulebook.

4E's method is better suited for those who have a distinct challenge level in mind and want to create an appropriately balanced creature. This is also a better option for those who are pressed for time, because the end result will be directly usable at the level you're designing for. The downside of this is that the monster you create may not quite "fit" into the world outside the encounter you've designed. If the numbers were transparent, the creature wouldn't make logical sense RELATIVE to other stuff in the world. The onus is on the DM to narrate the creature's relative capabilities and only use the numbers for balanced combat resolution.


Pathfinder has not yet changed monster design from 3E's method in any meaningful way. They have updated how CR is determined for NPC's and provided a prototype "budget-like" way of developing encounters. But nothing on the concept-to-monster process yet.
 

3E's method is better suited for those who have a vast library of options, because it allows you to build the exact monster you can imagine. Because the numbers in the system are all interwoven, the monster you come up with will have abilities and power that make "sense" from a simulationist point of view. By "sense" I mean relative to other types of creatures you can build with the system. The downside is that the end result may not be playable at the level you're trying to target. Advancement rules somewhat make up for this, but they were never developed beyond the bare-bones approach we got in the core rulebook.
Having used both systems (and being an object oriented programmer, actually), I don't know that I really buy that argument. 'It allows you to build the exact monster you can imagine'? How so? The 3e system is the one that says "You can't add another feat to this monster unless you give it three more hit dice, which come with a dozen-odd HP and +2 attack bonus and a bunch of other stuff." It's 3rd edition that insists that a demon of X hit dice must have Y spell like abilities, whether they fit the concept or not, that a creature in full plate has a +8 armor bonus to AC, and provides zero guidelines for how much damage a new special ability should do.

4e is the system that says, "Get these critical numbers right; other than that, go crazy and do what you like".

4E's method is better suited for those who have a distinct challenge level in mind and want to create an appropriately balanced creature.
Okay, I agree with that...

Are you trying to say that 3e you start from the powers and work backward to figure out an appropriate level, while 4e has you start from the level and then make all the numbers work?

I guess you could say that. But since "what level do I want to use this at" is kind of the basic question, it seems a bit more logical to start there. A lot of my quibble with 3e was that it was so hard to walk in the front with the intent of making a 7th level monster and still have the same concept when you finished running through the actuarial tables.

The downside of this is that the monster you create may not quite "fit" into the world outside the encounter you've designed. If the numbers were transparent, the creature wouldn't make logical sense RELATIVE to other stuff in the world. The onus is on the DM to narrate the creature's relative capabilities and only use the numbers for balanced combat resolution.
Could you explain that a bit more? I don't understand. If I create a level 8 minotaur wrestler, I expect him to be a little tougher than the level 7 brutes and a little weaker than the level 9 brutes, and a little tougher than the level 8 artillery.

What doesn't make logical sense? I mean, if I'm making a level 8 monster, obviously I'm not going to write flavor text that he's the leader for a bunch of level 12 monsters, but that's the same in 3e and 4e both.
 

Are you trying to say that 3e you start from the powers and work backward to figure out an appropriate level, while 4e has you start from the level and then make all the numbers work?

Well, Kind of. I'm saying that in 3E you start with a monster concept (I want a bipedal stegosaurus with four arms, that breathes fire) and after all the number-crunching is done it may not end up matching the level you want to play at. Your example of needing more HD to cover needed feats is the exact example of this concept. To create the monster you want, that does all the things you need it to do, it may not be playable at your PCs' level. You need to do some tweaking...

which is where the "wealth of source material" comes in. If you need to do something, 3E has a massive library of options to allow you to do it. You don't need whirlwind attack (and the 3 feats to get there) because instead your creature can take the feat "whirlwind tail sweep" or whatever.

In 4e, let's say you need a powerful hulking brute (minotaur wrestler) at level 12. To be an appropriate challenge, let's say his STR should be about 30 and he's a large-sized creature. Three levels ago you designed a plodding brute of a dinosaur that had no noteworthy abilities except being massively strong. It's a gargantuan creature with a STR of 30, appropriate for a 9th level challenge.

If, as the DM, you keep the numbers behind-the-screen and just narrate the encounters as they occur, who the heck cares?

BUT, if you are a numbers-transparent, simulation guy, this makes no numeric sense. And even that's because sim-folks want the numbers to represent something more than the abstract.

That's all I'm saying. I'm acutely aware of how limited 3E's advancement rules are and I wish they could have been better developed by 3PP's. They weren't, I'll deal. However, the core principle of 3E in monster creation has ALWAYS been... "compare it to other monsters of similar CR."
 

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