Maintaining Grim and Gritty Flavour!

[Terwox]

The reason I'm not running a bleak game right now is that my players don't want to play in one.
They're burned out on angst, or never liked it in the first place.
For instance, a player of mine really likes werewolf, but doesn't want to play it, because he's tired of having characters just fight a futile fight, then die, without changing a thing.

I'm not sure which one I personally prefer. But, I'm pretty sure a good deal of people I play with in a group are against the bleak outlook.

Rephrased -- these players want their characters' actions to have a few noticeable positive consequences. This thread has left me confused about what grim and gritty games are...

I've ran a game where player's actions had no positive consequences. It flopped. (Eh, I flat out probably just did a bad job with that game, though. And there were other problems. But.)

So, in short -- does grim and/or gritty mean actions cannot have positive consequences? Does it mean actions cannot have positive consequences without the negative ones outweighing them?

 

[Iguana]

i dont keep my campaign too gritty, there are splendid spring day, relatively clean cities and beautiful friendly woman.
it all gets gritty when it comes to combat, even if i wont make goblins use guerrilla tactics, im merciless, coup de grace is in the day order, nasty use of magic is regular, broken magic weapons and armors are usual, assassination is expected.
im generous in giving rewards but totally realistic in preparing sessions, i wont make a single guy assault a well equipped group, ill make him plan an ambush with diversion while he backstabs the group mage and coup-de-grace him.
even if i havent added any rule to make the game more realistic i make what i think are good description of the blows effects, those are gritty, a player wont think of him as a warrior with 23 hit points, but as a warrior with an arrow deeply stabbed in his shoulder, a bad wound in his stomach and blood spilling out of both.
oh, no friendly npcs or cleric too.

 

[S'mon]

So, in short -- does grim and/or gritty mean actions cannot have positive consequences? Does it mean actions cannot have positive consequences without the negative ones outweighing them?

No.

Grim & gritty to most people means that the environment appears grim & gritty, not that there's no hope of _any_ improvement. It's the difference between Schindler's List and '1984'. Nazi concentration camps are certainly a grim setting, but even there there can be hope. I think you may have played too much World of Darkness.

 

[Uller]

Grim & gritty to most people means that the environment appears grim & gritty, not that there's no hope of _any_ improvement. It's the difference between Schindler's List and '1984'. Nazi concentration camps are certainly a grim setting, but even there there can be hope. I think you may have played too much World of Darkness.

As one who prefers a more heroic world to the GnG type, I can say that there must be _some_ hope and the PCs must have _some_ chance to improve their conditions(or the condition of others). Otherwise, the players will stop caring about trying to be heroic. Then you just end up playing a game where the only point is to attain power thourgh the suffering of others(NE or LE characters) or simply to cause more suffering in an already evil world(CE characters). To me...that just doesn't sound like much fun.

As for Snoweel's pedophilia suggestion: I had an NPC cleric accompanied by what I described as a pre-teenaged boy who served him as an acolyte. All my players immediately assumed the worst and hated and mistrusted the cleric...so I turned him into a villian.

 

[Psion]

It wouldn't be hard to do skaven. You can use either the ratmen from Creature Collection or Nezumi from Oriental Adventures. I've thought about adding them in myself.

Warrens of the Ratmen

This message brought to you by someone who is not Nightfall.

 

[Yuan-Ti]

Warrens of the Ratmen

This message brought to you by someone who is not Nightfall.

I second that recommendation! (And I am neither Nightfall nor Nighttfall.)

 

[hong]

As for Snoweel's pedophilia suggestion: I had an NPC cleric accompanied by what I described as a pre-teenaged boy who served him as an acolyte. All my players immediately assumed the worst and hated and mistrusted the cleric...so I turned him into a villian.

Heh.

http://test.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=165385#post165385

 

[mmadsen]

I was recently enjoying Wulf's Collected Story Hour, when I realized how it's a good example of D&D being, well, D&D, with abundant healing, etc. Guys get burned alive with Greek fire ("alchemist's fire") and the response is, in effect, "drink your healing potion and quit your whining!"

Burned alive with Greek fire -- grim and gritty.
Drink a healing potion to undo it -- neither grim nor gritty.

 

[Alyx]

The following ideas are ALL adapted from firsthand experiences I have encountered in four years living in Indonesia. Living in this country offers a unique perspective on the garbage society can become. I would never use these in my campaign I am running here in Indonesia -- my players and myself are already effulged in a grim world from which few escape, and none depart unscarred.

Street Children

A number of you have already given this idea. Here are some ways to develop it to its full potential.

First, street children have a quota to fulfill. Depending on your setting, this may range from a few grubby copper coins, to a shining silver piece. If they do not turn this amount in to their 'employers' (and all street children are employed. There is no such thing as an unemployed beggar waif.), then they are whipped, beaten, and sometimes killed.

If a child is lucky enough to make money over his or her quota, he or she immediately spends it on drugs. A regular sight for the PCs should be small children (ages 7 plus) smoking at the side of city streets.

For both of these reasons, a street child will not accept food. If they are given food by a kind PC, they will not smile, nor give any gratitude whatsoever; they will throw the food to the street with disdain. They do not want food, they want money for their masters and drug dealers. They will go out of their way to express their dislike of food; if the PCs look harmless, the child might even throw the food back at them, or shout insults.

Rich looking PCs can expect an occasional child throwing stones at their horses, and then disappearing into the crowd.

Officials and Crime

The police want bribes. The government wants bribes. The food shop owner wants bribes.

The police will invent crimes and charge the PCs with them, hinting that the PCs can get off with a small gift of one or two gold coins (whatever is equivalent to roughly 5 dollars IRL). The charges should be annoying, small things. If the PCs attempt to use the law to avoid paying these 'fines', they can expect to pay either A: Twenty dollars over five weeks of stuffy, uncomfortable court hearings, or B: Fifty dollars for a day or two of hearings; the extra money goes into bribes for the judges, et al.

If the PCs ever encourage a revolution, or attempt to eradicate corruption, the officials that result will in fact be equally corrupt, but better able to hide their dealings, who are prepared to counteract whatever actions the PCs took for the last set of corrupt officials.

Vigilante mobs take care of the serious crimes, or crimes that looks serious, or crimes that involve friends or enemies. The perceived offenders should expect maiming or death for the smallest of ‘charges’.

Rape victims, be they mature women or children, consider themselves at fault for the crime. A very close friend of mine is a good example of this; as a child she was very close to becoming a victim of rape. Despite living with my family for four years, finishing schooling with top marks, learning to speak perfect English, and absorbing many western values, she considers herself guilty of inspiring the assailant. She will not consider the case any other way.

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I could go on, but that’s enough to give your campaign an ugly start. I’m in a good mood today, having circumvented the system here and acquiring a prize long sought. If I hadn’t been, this list would have been much more exhaustive. Those examples above are the ones I am thinking about most at the momment .

 

[Bonedagger]

Also...

I always like to discribe the weather when we start. Just something simple to get the players to associate the gameworld with the real one.

"It has been raining all night and as you step out into the street your foot sinck deep into the mud that covers most of the street.."

"It's a chilling morning. It has the smell of autumn and there is far between the clouds...."

"The air is very moist and the insects seems to be extra lively tonight. You can feel that you're already getting sweaty."

I believe that it's important that you get the players to feel what their charaters are feeling. Describing smells, sounds, feelings...