Maintaining Grim and Gritty Flavour!
- Thread starter SHARK
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Bonedagger
First Post
hong said:
"....It happend down in the alley just around the building. The air is thick with the smell of ozon and the ground in front of you is scorched. A burned body lies slung op against the wall on the house in the opposite side of the street. The fireball was apparently not the first spell that had been shoot of tonight. (So it wasn't the doorbell that woke you up... Damn. You must be a deep sleeper) You hear a voice crying out in terror from the alley..."
Who will add more?
Last edited:
Krug
Newshound
Bonedagger said:
"....It happend down in the alley just around the building. The air is thick with the smell of ozon and the ground in front of you is scorched. A burned body lies slung op against the wall on the house in the opposite side of the street. The fireball was apparently not the first spell that had been shoot of tonight. (So it wasn't the doorbell that woke you up... Damn. You must be a deep sleeper) You hear a voice crying out in terror from the alley..."
Who will add more?
A voice cried out. "Too... much... sulphur.. again."
Grim N Gritty, the thread that will not die eh?
Well on the rare occasions I want Grim N Gritty in my world I use the Brutal Combat expedient.
Most of the D&D fights I have played in are big brawls and face to face fights.
In Grim N Gritty the bad guys use the invisiblity magic to stab sleeping PC's with poison daggers.
ther good tricks are never diectly enaging the PC's if they can help it, missle fire and skirimishing that sort of thing
Making a fight scary and harrowing against Human opponents adds a lot to G&G flavor.
Now my world isn't grim in most places but if you emphasize squalor, poverty and corruption a world gets a lot grimmer
Rampant crulety, public executions, filth and savagery are all good tools too.
Persoanally I don't enjoy Grim N gritty very much. Since I live a mile from a ghetto I can see all I want with a short walk.
Heroism and happiness, I don't get anywhere near enough of that.
I should also warn you about Moral Ambiguity, IME it only works with basically good players
In most of the games I have played in the players prefered neutral aligments. To them all choices were equally bad, so just look out for number 1, that is the memeber of the party.
The last game I played in where the GM tried the moral ambiguity hammer it was a complete flop. None of the plyers wanted to play to the alternate thread. They prefered ther job as "State Goons' to much
Worse, when I tried to play along with the thread the resulting tension helped lead to the eventual collapse of the group. The main catalyst player couldn't seperate me from my character I guess.
Also too much G&G will make the players. No Hope leads to Why Bother and Why Bother leads to Don't Bother
Used in small amounts G&G is a great catalyst or great for a short (10-12 session) campaign. More than that is unpalitable
YMMV
Well on the rare occasions I want Grim N Gritty in my world I use the Brutal Combat expedient.
Most of the D&D fights I have played in are big brawls and face to face fights.
In Grim N Gritty the bad guys use the invisiblity magic to stab sleeping PC's with poison daggers.
ther good tricks are never diectly enaging the PC's if they can help it, missle fire and skirimishing that sort of thing
Making a fight scary and harrowing against Human opponents adds a lot to G&G flavor.
Now my world isn't grim in most places but if you emphasize squalor, poverty and corruption a world gets a lot grimmer
Rampant crulety, public executions, filth and savagery are all good tools too.
Persoanally I don't enjoy Grim N gritty very much. Since I live a mile from a ghetto I can see all I want with a short walk.
Heroism and happiness, I don't get anywhere near enough of that.
I should also warn you about Moral Ambiguity, IME it only works with basically good players
In most of the games I have played in the players prefered neutral aligments. To them all choices were equally bad, so just look out for number 1, that is the memeber of the party.
The last game I played in where the GM tried the moral ambiguity hammer it was a complete flop. None of the plyers wanted to play to the alternate thread. They prefered ther job as "State Goons' to much
Worse, when I tried to play along with the thread the resulting tension helped lead to the eventual collapse of the group. The main catalyst player couldn't seperate me from my character I guess.
Also too much G&G will make the players. No Hope leads to Why Bother and Why Bother leads to Don't Bother
Used in small amounts G&G is a great catalyst or great for a short (10-12 session) campaign. More than that is unpalitable
YMMV
Ulrick
First Post
One doesn't have to look far in history for a grim and gritty feel. I got most of my ideas for my own campaign setting from the Dark Ages.
Life just wasn't all that fun back then.
I looked the Viking Culture--my what a pessimistic bunch with their gods dying someday and all.
Then I take elements from Vampire the Dark Ages, Warhammer, Ravenloft, and Micheal Moorcock's books and mix it all together.
While I am all for the grim and gritty feel, you have to counterbalance it with a little bit of hope. Otherwise, the game will get depressing fast.
Have safehavens and good NPCs here and there. Though few and far between, these serve as becons of light in the darkness. Just as in horror fiction, the innocent and good help enhance the corrupt and evil.
Then, have bad guys kill and destroy them in the most revolting way possible. That will get you're players wanting vengence.
One example from my Greyhawk Campaign was a boatman named Burley. He was a commoner who made a living taking people across and up and down the Jewel River. He always swore that while the PCs where on his raft they were safe.
Then one day an assassin slew Burley and his son simply to get at the PCs emotionally since they were too powerful to confront in person.
Those PCs spent several session tracking that assassin down to kill him. The plot almost took over the main plot of the campaign!
Ulrick
Life just wasn't all that fun back then.
I looked the Viking Culture--my what a pessimistic bunch with their gods dying someday and all.
Then I take elements from Vampire the Dark Ages, Warhammer, Ravenloft, and Micheal Moorcock's books and mix it all together.
While I am all for the grim and gritty feel, you have to counterbalance it with a little bit of hope. Otherwise, the game will get depressing fast.
Have safehavens and good NPCs here and there. Though few and far between, these serve as becons of light in the darkness. Just as in horror fiction, the innocent and good help enhance the corrupt and evil.
Then, have bad guys kill and destroy them in the most revolting way possible. That will get you're players wanting vengence.
One example from my Greyhawk Campaign was a boatman named Burley. He was a commoner who made a living taking people across and up and down the Jewel River. He always swore that while the PCs where on his raft they were safe.
Then one day an assassin slew Burley and his son simply to get at the PCs emotionally since they were too powerful to confront in person.
Those PCs spent several session tracking that assassin down to kill him. The plot almost took over the main plot of the campaign!
Ulrick
Oberton
First Post
D&D Animee or Grim N Gritty
I think alot of people don't feel that D&D has that hard core Grim N Gritty feel to it because of the new art work and its focus on Animee "stylism." Because of this, I tend to find other sources of art work that convey the feeling I want. Middle Earth has always been a good google image search term. Try out this site also: http://www.art.com/ During play I like to show as many images that I can to the players so they get an idea of the world. *--warning product plug--* I also like Auran d20 products because they use computer animation and art to enhance the modules they produce www.auran.com *--plug over--*
Later
Good Gaming
NWN Server -- ALFA EVERMOORS
I think alot of people don't feel that D&D has that hard core Grim N Gritty feel to it because of the new art work and its focus on Animee "stylism." Because of this, I tend to find other sources of art work that convey the feeling I want. Middle Earth has always been a good google image search term. Try out this site also: http://www.art.com/ During play I like to show as many images that I can to the players so they get an idea of the world. *--warning product plug--* I also like Auran d20 products because they use computer animation and art to enhance the modules they produce www.auran.com *--plug over--*
Later
Good Gaming
NWN Server -- ALFA EVERMOORS
Hammerhead
Explorer
Re: Re: Re: Re: why does grim and gritty imply low magic?
Of course, a timely response could mean that 44 cure spells would be all that is needed. For example, look at Grazzt's post:
No way clerics can stop this one? I doubt it. Since there are sick and dying people on the ships, the captain sends for the priests RIGHT AWAY. The same 44 cure spells now remove a substancial chunk of the beginning of the epidemic. If a prompt response cuts the disease sources in 1/2, then it spreads far slower, allowing the clerics to keep control for longer. Also a wand of remove disease more than doubles the daily cure ability in an emergency. Finally, Paladins are immune to disease and powerful ones can also cure it. They make excellent "doctors" since they won't get sick and have heal as a class skill.
Even evil clerics might want to help cure people. Only a few types of dieties would benefit. It's kind of hard for priests of the god of Tyranny to rule a city if everyone dies of the plague. They'd probably cure people, and then use their aid of the city as another lever to gain power.
Of course, I don't think that I'm cut out for grim and gritty. One of my characters cast Endure Elements fire at the beginning of every day. Not because I wanted protection against fire attacks. I just did so my cleric wouldn't be bothered by a hot day. As the seasons changed, I would have switched to cold, or maybe both in fall.
Umbran said:
Lots of people say this, but they usually don't check out the numbers before they do so. It isn't as true as you might think.
Let us consider the demographics given in the DMG, and a city of 25,000 or more people. By the DMG demographic, there will be 28 clerics capable of casting the third level spell Remove Disease. On average, probably half of those are not of the proper alignment or ethos or personal temperament to spend their 3rd level spells curing the populace.
So, following the basic pattern outlined in the DMG, I estimate the remaining clerics can cast the spell 44 times a day, total. In a city of 25,000 people, only 44 can be cured each day. In an influenza epidemic, where hundreds catch the disease each day, and may be dead in a week if they don't recieve help, the clerics aren't going to stop the problem. They can only cure 300 people a week. A real epidemic is beyond their control.
And, here's the clincher - Remove Disease speciifcally states that it doesn't stop the patient from becoming re-infected. So, in this epidemic laden city, if the cured don't leave, they're likely to need the cleric's services more than once!
So, what happens when the epidemic hits? There are 8,000 sick people, who may be dead in a week if not cured, and only 300 can be saved? You work out how grim and gritty this city becomes
So, while the availability of Remove Disease is great for an individual or adventurer on a normal workday, it won't stop the really bad problems. Especially in a world where the DM likes Darwinian evolution, and realizes that the ability to cure the diesease quickly favors highly virulent strains
Oh, also, what else is going on while the nice clerics are curing and handling crowds they cannot serve? Well, the not so nice clerics are having a bit of an unchecked field day, now aren't they?
Of course, a timely response could mean that 44 cure spells would be all that is needed. For example, look at Grazzt's post:
No way clerics can stop this one? I doubt it. Since there are sick and dying people on the ships, the captain sends for the priests RIGHT AWAY. The same 44 cure spells now remove a substancial chunk of the beginning of the epidemic. If a prompt response cuts the disease sources in 1/2, then it spreads far slower, allowing the clerics to keep control for longer. Also a wand of remove disease more than doubles the daily cure ability in an emergency. Finally, Paladins are immune to disease and powerful ones can also cure it. They make excellent "doctors" since they won't get sick and have heal as a class skill.
Even evil clerics might want to help cure people. Only a few types of dieties would benefit. It's kind of hard for priests of the god of Tyranny to rule a city if everyone dies of the plague. They'd probably cure people, and then use their aid of the city as another lever to gain power.
Of course, I don't think that I'm cut out for grim and gritty. One of my characters cast Endure Elements fire at the beginning of every day. Not because I wanted protection against fire attacks. I just did so my cleric wouldn't be bothered by a hot day. As the seasons changed, I would have switched to cold, or maybe both in fall.
SHARK
First Post
Greetings!
Good stuff Ulrick! I love the Dark Ages!
I think that "Grim and Gritty Flavour" doesn't necessarily have be hopeless, but rather a ruthless imposition of reality and consequences-for-actions. It contains the premise that the heroes victory, or happiness, is not guaranteed. This at first seems simple, and yet campaigns that don't include such concepts can often de facto result in that phenomenon of the players simply marching inevitably over all resistance. "Grim and Gritty"--such as it is, may indeed have great levels of heroism in it, but at the back of the players minds, or even in the forefront!--there is this very real concern of death, pain, and defeat!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Good stuff Ulrick! I love the Dark Ages!
I think that "Grim and Gritty Flavour" doesn't necessarily have be hopeless, but rather a ruthless imposition of reality and consequences-for-actions. It contains the premise that the heroes victory, or happiness, is not guaranteed. This at first seems simple, and yet campaigns that don't include such concepts can often de facto result in that phenomenon of the players simply marching inevitably over all resistance. "Grim and Gritty"--such as it is, may indeed have great levels of heroism in it, but at the back of the players minds, or even in the forefront!--there is this very real concern of death, pain, and defeat!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
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