Making Boss/Sub-Boss with CRs

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So, I am nearing the end-game for my group in their current adventure and planning out the sub-boss and boss.

From the encountering building material in the DMG, I need the sub-boss to be a CR 3 Priest, and the boss a CR 5 Priest (they have some lackeys as well, but those are standard monster-types and already factored into the encounters). Anyway, those CRs will give me a Hard and Deadly, respectively, ratings. The party consists of 5 4th-levels and 2 3rd-levels, in case you need to know.

But, I am running into a snag trying to determine just what levels they should be, etc. Does the Monster Statistics by Challenge Rating (p. 274 DMG) work well for this? It doesn't seem to, but I could certainly be missing something. I mean, the Hit Points ranges listed seem way too high for using this system when translating an NPC-type into a boss.

I will keep working on them today, but in the meantime if anyone has any tips, suggestions, advice, please let me know and thanks.
 

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A group of 5 PCs can handle more than the DMG suggests since it is set up for 4 PCS. A CR3 cleric can be 5th level or 6th level. and a CR5 cleric I would make 9th level. That may be a bit high for 3rd level PCs. I would have an encounter with a level 4 cleric that I added a cool power to to make him memorable and have a new twist. Make him a CR2 monster and have a few other goons with him. The BBEG can be similar, but level 7 to give him 4th level spells and make him a CR4, but also have a few goons with him since most spellcasters need to have some range and a few rounds to get going.
 

Honestly, you're better off making them the way you want them to be, and not worrying about the CR value too much (other than for giving out XP). The guidelines for encounter creation are fairly loose, and IME the party will usually be able to handle a lot more than you think they can, especially considering you have a big party.

The standard NPC Priest is a CR 2, 5th level caster. You could easily modify it to boost it up to be a CR 3 by increasing its Strength so that its melee attack is meaningful and giving it chainmail and shield (increasing the AC to 18) so it has survivability. The boss could work out the same way by also increasing the spellcasting level and possibly magic items, which will be trickier to judge. The rules in the DMG are fairly workable for this, as most creatures fit into the system already.

If you have access to the adventure Princes of the Apocalypses, they also have some alternate priest options that are above CR 2. I think Volo's might also have some other options as well.
 

So, I am nearing the end-game for my group in their current adventure and planning out the sub-boss and boss.

From the encountering building material in the DMG, I need the sub-boss to be a CR 3 Priest, and the boss a CR 5 Priest (they have some lackeys as well, but those are standard monster-types and already factored into the encounters). Anyway, those CRs will give me a Hard and Deadly, respectively, ratings. The party consists of 5 4th-levels and 2 3rd-levels, in case you need to know.

But, I am running into a snag trying to determine just what levels they should be, etc. Does the Monster Statistics by Challenge Rating (p. 274 DMG) work well for this? It doesn't seem to, but I could certainly be missing something. I mean, the Hit Points ranges listed seem way too high for using this system when translating an NPC-type into a boss.

I will keep working on them today, but in the meantime if anyone has any tips, suggestions, advice, please let me know and thanks.

So, first you'll need to understand that there are actually two tools the DMG provides DMs who wish to budget encounters: the Easy/Medium/Hard/Deadly guidelines, and the Adventuring Day XP guidelines. For example, if this were to be your party's only encounter that day, then using the Adventuring Day XP guidelines would probably make more sense.

Also, I notice you said that you "need" certain CRs to attain a desired threat level. Let me say that IME the Easy/Medium/Hard/Deadly designations are very loose and probably have only been true in a little over half the combats I've run so far. There are a huge number of mitigating factors besides the monsters you pick (i.e. tactics, terrain, traps, surprise, party composition, party freshness, player experience, etc).

Lastly, there is no exact correlation between class levels and monster CR. If you're used to 3rd edition where NPCs & PCs were built with the same rules, you need to jettison that idea – 5th edition doesn't work that way. In 5th edition, monster/NPC CR is determined through a specific process involving calculating defensive CR & offensive CR, then averaging those for a final CR value (plus a fair bit of artistic interpretation). Particularly when it comes to spellcasting monsters/NPCs, CR determination is hugely dependent on spell selection/use. For example, you can imagine a mage from the monster manual (CR 6, a 9th-level spellcaster) taking primarily divination spells, and that mage's CR would drop a lot without fireball and other offensive/defensive magic.

That said, if you're comfortable going with a rule-of-thumb about these things, here's what I sometimes use at my table (though the highest I've used this way is CR 5):

CR-----Level
1/4----1
1/2----2
1-------3
2-------4
3-------5
4-------7
5-------9
6-------11
7-------12
8-------14
9-------16
10-----18
11-----19
12-----20
 
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So, I am nearing the end-game for my group in their current adventure and planning out the sub-boss and boss.

From the encountering building material in the DMG, I need the sub-boss to be a CR 3 Priest, and the boss a CR 5 Priest (they have some lackeys as well, but those are standard monster-types and already factored into the encounters). Anyway, those CRs will give me a Hard and Deadly, respectively, ratings. The party consists of 5 4th-levels and 2 3rd-levels, in case you need to know.

But, I am running into a snag trying to determine just what levels they should be, etc. Does the Monster Statistics by Challenge Rating (p. 274 DMG) work well for this? It doesn't seem to, but I could certainly be missing something. I mean, the Hit Points ranges listed seem way too high for using this system when translating an NPC-type into a boss.

I will keep working on them today, but in the meantime if anyone has any tips, suggestions, advice, please let me know and thanks.
Need more imfo on the lackeys. You have a 7 man party of average 4th level, which makes your hard budget 2625xp to 3499xp and your deadly 3500xp and up.

Further, large parties are really spongy, much more so than even the xp divider suggests. If your going for a sub-boss and boss, I'd recommend the sub boss be deadly and the boss be doubke or triple deadly thresholds. I'd be cautious about any individual CR over 8 or 9, but I'd stack up on bodyguards.

For the boss, a CR 5 caster with strong melee abilities and good defenses should be about a 6-7th level caster. I'd go with 7th for the 4th level spell scare.
 

Thanks for all the responses.

The lackeys for the sub-boss are two Acolytes. They have good ACs (18) but are otherwise just like Level 1 Clerics. I might add one or two more warrior types as well, but all the lackeys will be CR 1 or less. So far, I am looking at a Paladin 2/ Cleric 5 for the sub-boss.

The boss has 3 zombie guards with pretty high HP and longswords (1d10+1), and a Giant snake (CR 2) with good HP also. I am thinking about 9th level for the boss, but haven't thought about class-level distribution yet.

I'll post the sub-boss in a little while. It might not be CR 3 (more likely CR 4 I am thinking so far).
 

I'll second the idea that we can't really provide much guidance without knowing what the mooks are - in 5e, even trivially weak monsters can have a huge effect on encounter design.

I also strongly recommend using Kobold Fight Club, which can be found at http://kobold.club/fight/#/encounter-builder.

This tool calculates the difficulty level of various combinations of monsters with varying Cars, and even allows you to adjust based on the numbers of characters in your group. it does all the math for you, including quantity multipliers and such that you're likely to forget to apply otherwise, and icludes all the monsters from awide array of official and 3rd party sources.
 

The CR system is built on shaky foundations at best. It's better to take it with a big grain of salt and look at your characters' HP, AC, attack bonus, damage capacity, etc., and determine which monsters are appropriate based on the abilities of the characters.
 

Here is Gorth, the sub-boss:

GORTH - Cultist Priest (Paladin 2/ Cleric 5 (War Domain))
Medium humanoid (human), Chaotic Evil
----
Armor Class: 21 (Plate, Shield, Defensive Style)
Hit Points: 48
Speed: 20 ft.
----
Str: 13 Dex: 10 Con: 12 Int: 12 Wis: 14 Chr: 14
----
Saves: Wisdom +5, Charisma +4
Skills: Insight+5, Intimidation +5, Medicine +5, Perception +5, Religion +4
Langs: Common, Elven, Infernal, Orc
Feats: Savage Attacker, War Caster
Challenge: 3 (700 XP)
----
Channel Divinity (1/Day): Gorth can use his channel divinity to Turn Undead (Command Undead CR 1/2 or lower) or for his Guided Strike (grants +10 to attack roll, after roll but before outcome determined).
War Priest: As a bonus action, Gorth can make a second attack as part of an attack action. This ability is limited to two uses before a Long rest.
Lay On Hands: As an action, Gorth can heal up to 10 hit points of damage from a pool of healing power. This pool replenishes after a Long rest.
Divine Smite: Gorth can expend a 1st-level spell slot to deal an additional 2d8 points of radiant damage. Each additional level of the spell slot increases the damage by +1d8.

Spellcasting. Gorth is a 6th-level caster. Spell save is DC 13 and +5 to attack rolls with spells. Gorth has the following spells prepared:

Cantrips (at will): Light, Resistance, Sacred Flame, Toll the Dead
1st Level (4 slots): Command, Cure Wounds, Divine Favor, Healing Word, Inflict Wounds, Sanctuary, Shield of Faith, Thunderous Smite
2nd Level (3 slots): Aid, Magic Weapon, Silence, Spiritual Weapon
3rd Level (3 slots): Crusader's Mantle, Dispel Magic, Protection from Energy, Spirit Guardians
----
Actions:

Mace (+1). Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft. one target. Hit: 5 (1d6+1) bludgeoning damage.
Savage Attacker. Once per turn, Gorth can re-roll damage for his mace and take either roll.


I think that is everything. The question is: is Gorth a CR 3???

I don't want the encounter to be deadly at all. With a couple acolytes, and maybe a couple fighter-types (CR 1s), would this made a Moderate to Hard encounter (leaning more towards Moderate I think).

If I missed anything or messed it up, please don't hesitate to bring it up! :)
 
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Here is Gorth, the sub-boss:

GORTH - Cultist Priest (Paladin 2/ Cleric 5 (War Domain))
Medium humanoid (human), Chaotic Evil
----
Armor Class: 21 (Plate, Shield, Defensive Style)
Hit Points: 48
Speed: 20 ft.
----
Str: 13 Dex: 10 Con: 12 Int: 12 Wis: 14 Chr: 14
----
Saves: Wisdom +5, Charisma +4
Skills: Insight+5, Intimidation +5, Medicine +5, Perception +5, Religion +4
Langs: Common, Elven, Infernal, Orc
Feats: Savage Attacker, War Caster
Challenge: 3 (700 XP)
----
Channel Divinity (1/Day): Gorth can use his channel divinity to Turn Undead (Command Undead CR 1/2 or lower) or for his Guided Strike (grants +10 to attack roll, after roll but before outcome determined).
War Priest: As a bonus action, Gorth can make a second attack as part of an attack action. This ability is limited to two uses before a Long rest.
Lay On Hands: As an action, Gorth can heal up to 10 hit points of damage from a pool of healing power. This pool replenishes after a Long rest.
Divine Smite: Gorth can expend a 1st-level spell slot to deal an additional 2d8 points of radiant damage. Each additional level of the spell slot increases the damage by +1d8.

Spellcasting. Gorth is a 6th-level caster. Spell save is DC 13 and +5 to attack rolls with spells. Gorth has the following spells prepared:

Cantrips (at will): Light, Resistance, Sacred Flame, Toll the Dead
1st Level (4 slots): Command, Cure Wounds, Divine Favor, Healing Word, Inflict Wounds, Sanctuary, Shield of Faith, Thunderous Smite
2nd Level (3 slots): Aid, Magic Weapon, Silence, Spiritual Weapon
3rd Level (3 slots): Crusader's Mantle, Dispel Magic, Protection from Energy, Spirit Guardians
----
Actions:

Mace (+1). Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft. one target. Hit: 5 (1d6+1) bludgeoning damage.
Savage Attacker. Once per turn, Gorth can re-roll damage for his mace and take either roll.


I think that is everything. The question is: is Gorth a CR 3???

I don't want the encounter to be deadly at all. With a couple acolytes, and maybe a couple fighter-types (CR 1s), would this made a Moderate to Hard encounter (leaning more towards Moderate I think).

If I missed anything or messed it up, please don't hesitate to bring it up! :)

I'll focus on your question about Gorth's CR for now... Tl;dr he's probably more like CR 5.

Before I start, the attack/damage is wrong on his Mace +1. It should be:

Mace +1. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 5 (1d6+2) bludgeoning damage.

Also, for flavor purposes, I suggest changing his Divine Smite to dealing necrotic damage. Up to you.

Lastly, because you insist on presenting your NPC using PC rules, it makes CR calculation much more difficult. Why? Simple, because player-facing rules are more complicated with more to keep track of. Because DMs run more monsters, the DM-facing monster/NPC rules are simpler with less fiddly bits. Thus informed, let's dive in...

-----------

Since monsters/NPCs typically don't usually have Feats, we need to evaluate how Savage Attacker and War Caster affect CR. War Caster I'd treat as proficiency in the Constitution saving throw – thus, with 3 proficient saves that is a +2 effective AC when calculating Gorth's Defensive CR. Savage Attacker is probably worth +1 damage since he fights with a d6 mace (I'm eyeballing, not running actual dice odds here).

Now we need to figure out Gorth's 3-round spell strategy. IME his maximum bang-for-his-buck will be silence and/or spirit guardians, possibly with dispel magic if there's a golden opportunity. For CR calculation purposes, I'm going to assume he casts spirit guardians on round#1, and it lasts till the end of round #2 (when his concentration gets broken).

-----------

Let's start with his Defensive CR. 48 HP starts us at CR 1/4. His AC is 21, but proficiency in 3 saves bumps that up to an effective AC of 23. That bumps his Defensive CR up to 4.

-----------

What about his Offensive CR?

Round #1! With spirit guardians, I'd guess he'd catch 2 PCs on Round #1 and he'd be lucky to get 1 PC on Round #2 (but let's give him the benefit of the doubt), so that is 3 * 13.5 average damage = 40.5 damage over Rounds #1 and #2.

But he also gets a bonus action mace+1 attack thanks to his War Priest trait, and I'm going to assume for these bonus action attacks he buffs them with Divine Smite using a 2nd-level spell slot, dealing 1d6+2+3d8 damage, which averages to 19, but remember his Savage Attacker feat, so that'll be about 20 damage.

So, 60.5 damage on Round #1.

On Round #2, he attacks with his mace +1 buffed with Divine Smite using a 3rd-level spell slot, dealing 1d6+2+4d8 damage, which averages to 23.5, but remember his Savage Attacker feat, so that'll be 24.5.

He also makes his bonus action attack with Divine Smite using a 2nd-level spell slot, for 20 damage.

So, 40.5 damage on Round #2.

Round #3 is the exact same as Round #2, so another 40.5 damage.

Thus, his DPR over 3-rounds = (60.5 + 40.5 + 40.5) / 3 = 141.5 / 3 = 47 damage

That starts his Offensive CR at 7. His attack bonus +5 and his save DC of 13 mean I'd drop this down to CR 6. So it's Offensive CR 6.

-----------

Thus, Gorth's total CR = (4 + 6) / 2 = 10 / 2 = 5

As stated above, the CR system is not an exact science. There's a lot of art hidden in monster maths, and a different spell strategy or different targeting assumptions could change his CR by +/-2.
 
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