Making Con a bit more important

[Sadrik]

I keep hearing all these fervent arguments and yet I continue to see a steady stream of low-Con characters in both RPGA and home-game play...

I think this has less to do with how powerful CON is and more to do with stat polarity. Stat polarity is the choice between CON and STR at character creation, almost always you choose STR over CON. This is not the worst offender of this poorly designed mechanic, that would go to INT and DEX.

To fix stat polarity, spread the defenses out to an individual stat. For instance: CON = FORT, DEX = REF, and WIS = WILL.

So, that makes...

STR
Basic melee or heavy thrown weapon attack
Basic melee or heavy thrown weapon damage
Encumbrance
Athletics skill
Primary for Fighter
Primary for two-weapon Ranger
Primary for melee Cleric
Primary for Warlord
Primary for strength Paladin

CON
Starting HP
Healing surges
Fortitude defense
Endurance skill
Primary for infernal Warlock

DEX
Basic ranged or light thrown weapon attack
Basic ranged or light thrown weapon damage
Initiative modifier
Reflex defense
AC defense
Acrobatics, Stealth, Thievery skills
Primary for Rogue
Primary for archer Ranger

INT
Arcana, History, Religion skills
Primary for Wizard

WIS
Will defense
Dungeoneering, Heal, Insight, Nature, Perception skills
Primary for lazer Clerics

CHA
Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Streetwise skills
Primary for charisma Paladin
Primary for fey Warlock

I think I have it all in there.

 

[keterys]

Umm... Why is it bad for there to be Cons of 10 + 12 but it's ok for every other star to often be 8 + 10?

Houserule isn't going to break anything but I question the motive.

 

[Garthanos]

Yeah, but given that PCs all have basically equivalence in total stats, if it were possible to apply any stat to providing a bonus in any given activity, then all characters would pretty much end up with equal ability at everything. In a 'realism' sense it might be more accurate, but it would sort of make all characters pretty uniform, and that would be boring.

ummm they are all pretty darn uniform as everyone currently uses there best attribute for most all moves.

I am kind of arguing that the fighter could reasonably be given some Int Powers ... ie

PREDICTIVE STRIKE which might fluff wise "predict and even interrupt the adversaries attack" based on intelligence as a for instance. Would it mean every fighter had to have high intelligence .. no ... but it might enable the sharp minded fighter to be something other than a swordmage. In game effect might even be a temporary boost in effective Reflex and Armor Class.

And just to show the idea can float both ways ... It might also be reasonable to allow wizards to Stabilize a spell ... ie the spell might sustain itself extra rounds based on Charisma or Wisdom. Hmm I guess that isnt quite the same as having Strength impact spell use... Inspite of the flavor text I dont really see wisdom much used in the Wizard class... or did I miss it.

.. I am a renaissance man hear me roar.
If you think that means I go to renaissance faires, ur you missed it ;-)

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

ummm they are all pretty darn uniform as everyone currently uses there best attribute for most all moves.

I am kind of arguing that the fighter could reasonably be given some Int Powers ... ie

PREDICTIVE STRIKE which might fluff wise "predict and even interrupt the adversaries attack" based on intelligence as a for instance. Would it mean every fighter had to have high intelligence .. no ... but it might enable the sharp minded fighter to be something other than a swordmage. In game effect might even be a temporary boost in effective Reflex and Armor Class.

And just to show the idea can float both ways ... It might also be reasonable to allow wizards to Stabilize a spell ... ie the spell might sustain itself extra rounds based on Charisma or Wisdom. Hmm I guess that isnt quite the same as having Strength impact spell use... Inspite of the flavor text I dont really see wisdom much used in the Wizard class... or did I miss it.

.. I am a renaissance man hear me roar.
If you think that means I go to renaissance faires, ur you missed it ;-)

I think it would be fine to have builds of any class that rely on whichever stats you have a nack for making up powers for. I actually would suggest that they be assigned to a single list and then you can use a feat to have access to the list. Most will require a certain stat or two of 14 or 15. That would encourage players to build a greater variety of character types.

If 4e has a single major failing, it is that they subdivided powers down to the level of classes. And now they have compounded that by almost ignoring builds and class features and instead made a dozen new classes, that MUST now have all their own power lists, sigh.

Maybe the madness should be reigned in!

 

[Garthanos]

I think it would be fine to have builds of any class that rely on whichever stats you have a nack for making up powers for. I actually would suggest that they be assigned to a single list and then you can use a feat to have access to the list. Most will require a certain stat or two of 14 or 15. That would encourage players to build a greater variety of character types.

Making the effects dependent on a non-standard "for the class" attribute might be sufficiently high bar.. you think it necessary to add a feat on the front too?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Making the effects dependent on a non-standard "for the class" attribute might be sufficiently high bar.. you think it necessary to add a feat on the front too?

Only because it is more likely that they will wind up providing you with some extra powerful combinations. Compare to multi-class feats where you gain a small benefit and then TRADE your existing power for a power of the other class. It would be WELL worth a feat to get access to a general list of additional powers. That to my mind would have been better than the MP approach of adding to three separate lists.

Powers can be restricted by class, feature, power source, level, race, god, etc. So they don't really NEED to be separate lists, so maybe ALL powers should join one 'master list'. Then there is no need of a feat, but there is a need to figure out what aught to be allowed to match with what. Also what the impact is on all the various multi-classing features.

 

[Garthanos]

The feat which allowed basic attacks by swordmages to be intelligence based... that intrigued me quite a bit - though it amounted to more of one stat to rule them all... and in the darkness bind them. Similarly some of the backgrounds make starting hitpoints based on an alternate stat in place of constitution. These make me want to waffle back the other direction Its easy to see how specialization gives benefits... less obvious how diversification will.

I guess predictable benefits are safe and hence dont need as many checks on them

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I think this has less to do with how powerful CON is and more to do with stat polarity. Stat polarity is the choice between CON and STR at character creation, almost always you choose STR over CON. This is not the worst offender of this poorly designed mechanic, that would go to INT and DEX.

To fix stat polarity, spread the defenses out to an individual stat. For instance: CON = FORT, DEX = REF, and WIS = WILL.

So, that makes...

STR
Basic melee or heavy thrown weapon attack
Basic melee or heavy thrown weapon damage
Encumbrance
Athletics skill
Primary for Fighter
Primary for two-weapon Ranger
Primary for melee Cleric
Primary for Warlord
Primary for strength Paladin

CON
Starting HP
Healing surges
Fortitude defense
Endurance skill
Primary for infernal Warlock

DEX
Basic ranged or light thrown weapon attack
Basic ranged or light thrown weapon damage
Initiative modifier
Reflex defense
AC defense
Acrobatics, Stealth, Thievery skills
Primary for Rogue
Primary for archer Ranger

INT
Arcana, History, Religion skills
Primary for Wizard

WIS
Will defense
Dungeoneering, Heal, Insight, Nature, Perception skills
Primary for lazer Clerics

CHA
Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Streetwise skills
Primary for charisma Paladin
Primary for fey Warlock

I think I have it all in there.

Except it would seem to me all you've done is devalued STR, INT, and CHA. Now STR I think won't suffer much from that, it is still of primary value for any number of things which characters regularly want to do. Fighters will still have to build up STR to be really effective (unless they can take powers that substitute some other stat). CON will obviously become even more important than it is now (and it already has plenty of love, especially with BRV in the mix).

CHA would become pretty much a total dump stat for anyone that doesn't need the 'social' skills much. It wouldn't be valueless by any means, but it would certainly become worth less than it is now. WIS really didn't need to be built up all that much though, if at all. It was already driving some fairly vital skills (Perception is a pretty key skill to have for many characters).

INT would essentially become an utter dump stat. Unless you're an Arcane build that relies on INT based attacks there is just very little reason to take INT. Again there are some nice skills attached to it, but not ones most classes need to be able to use. You really only need so many historians and arcane experts in a group. DEX now becomes an even more highly desirable stat than it was before, contributing to AC and also providing reflex defense (next most commonly used after AC).

So, I don't see where this sort of change is making things better in any sense. You will now have a lot more characters with high CON, DEX, and WIS and a lot less with high STR, INT, and CHA. Dunno what that accomplishes.

It also would throw a monkeywrench into a lot of existing class design. An int based build is now forced to also invest heavily in DEX and thus is more likely than ever to have to raid something else, like probably CHA and STR will be minimized. The same goes for other builds. Any build which is seriously dual stat based now and where CHA or INT is one of those stats will be pretty much totally SOL, they're going to be sitting at base level reflex and/or will defense for most/all of their career.

 

[Garthanos]

Having cross uses and allowing one to defend oneself with spirit(CHA) not just discipline(WIS) is one of the recent features I have liked in D&D.

People will habitually use there best abilities which may be appropo to the circumstances.. and can be very adaptable about how to apply them especially in desparate circumstances (alah defense). This is a real thing, now it isnt perfect hence the old addage if you have a really good hammer everything looks like a nail... it sometimes causes problems for instance when you try to use wisdom in place of charisma and vice versa ;-), you sometimes get charismatic psychopaths running churches (they get called cults...) and priests trying to run governments (they get called all sorts of names.)
Perhaps the GM is upping the DC of actions using them that way.