Making D20 Faster

[village6]

As I sat there this weekend, playing in a game of Greyhawk, watching the combat progress all I could think was "this is an hour that I'll never be able to get back". The question, quite simply is why does combat take so bloody long in D20/3.x? I don't remember it being this time consuming in prior editions, and I'm quite sure that it was more exciting.

I also pretty sure that this topic has been gone over before, so if anyone can direct me to the appropriate thread, I'd appeciate it.

Lastly, does Enworld have a search function on its messageboards? I'd surely like to find this kind of stuff myself.

Thanks, and be seeing you...
- #6

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Slower? As measured by rounds or measured by results?

IME there is no significant difference in speed of combat.

The exception would be groups that overthink tactical movement. If the DM does it, he just needs to learn to worry less over his precious NPCs who are a pretty disposable commodity in the grand scheme of things. If the players overthink, the DM should just count to 5 and declare that PC Delayed, and move on to the next character.

 

[Vrecknidj]

Combat in my campaign can take forever, in large part because I have so many players (I can't recall the last time I had fewer than 6 players at the table). That said, the two biggest drains on time during combat are 1) players getting up from the table and not having a clue what's going on when they come back and 2) players indecisive about what their character will do in any given situation.

Other than those, I'd say combat lasts no longer than it did in 2e or 1e. If you want to speed things up, have all the players sit around the table in order of their initiative modifiers, and then skip rolling initiative. Always let the players go first, except for surprise, and have the players just go one at a time around the table. There will be some complaining at first, but if the payoff in time saved is enough, everyone will calm down.

Dave

 

[dvvega]

The "more exciting" aspect could be explained by the fact that nowadays combat has become more tactical and less "fly by the seat of your pants".

Previously there were no AOOs, no holding actions, no delaying, it just happened. You would charge into the orcs and kill without worrying about anything special.

Now, you get so many options that its become a tactical experience. This slows down if people really don't understand the combat system and options.

A DM should know it well, so he can simply declare AOOs. In fact that's the way I play it. Players tend to do what they want and I adjudicate what happens.

So if they charge at the enemy I'll do the AOOs as required and they have to suck it up if they didn't realise. This is realistic in the sense that a charging fighter forgot to note the lone orc with a readied reach weapon off to the side or something.

But yes, it can be slower IF players worry too much about AOOs, how many squares of movement, etc - and IF the DM doesn't know the combat rules properly.

 

[village6]

The "more exciting" aspect could be explained by the fact that nowadays combat has become more tactical and less "fly by the seat of your pants".

Yes, I believe this is definitely part of it. It seems that D&D wants to be Warhammer or Squad Leader, but does an inelegant job of it, IMO.

Previously there were no AOOs...you get so many options that its become a tactical experience. This slows down if people really don't understand the combat system and options.

In retrospect, this is definitely a big part of it. AOOs seem to dominate everyone's thinking, and really don't model the genre very well (although they might perhaps model reality well). Definitely agree that the number of options, especially options that nerf either 'absolutes' or other options, slow the game down - I sat through probably 45 minutes of rules discussion/lawyering during the 5 hour session. IMO, 15% of my time should not be spent listening to other people work out the rules. Yes, the players were often not ready, and even more often just not prepared vis-a-vis simple math like damage totals. <sigh>

In fact that's the way I play it. Players tend to do what they want and I adjudicate what happens.

So if they charge at the enemy I'll do the AOOs as required and they have to suck it up if they didn't realise. This is realistic in the sense that a charging fighter forgot to note the lone orc with a readied reach weapon off to the side or something.[/QUOTE]

I like this methodology a lot.

Be seeing you...
#6

 

[village6]

Slower? As measured by rounds or measured by results?

Results, I guess. Truthfully, as measured by the proportion of my gaming time that is taken up with combat in 3.x vs. prior editions. I think others have hit on the tactical minutae as well as the complexity of all the permutations of options as the likely culprits.

IME there is no significant difference in speed of combat.

Then our experiences are wildly different.

The exception would be groups that overthink tactical movement. If the DM does it, he just needs to learn to worry less over his precious NPCs who are a pretty disposable commodity in the grand scheme of things. If the players overthink, the DM should just count to 5 and declare that PC Delayed, and move on to the next character.

IME, this is virtually all groups that I've played with. I agree that mooks are there to be 'used', and I like the the idea of limiting their time to act.

Be seeing you...
#6

 

[Olorin]

Yes, don't let the players overanalyze and handwring over the rules. If you want combat to flow smoothly and quickly, have each player ready when it is their turn to act to tell you in plain terms what they want their character to do. Give them a time limit if you like. And then resolve it to the best of your ability by the ruleset. Don't second-guess yourself. Keep things going forward, try to be fair but if a mistake is made acknowledge it and move on. Let minor adjustments be made if there is a miscommunication or it won't take too much time to correct, otherwise just say "we'll handle it correctly next time".

I've run large battles with 6+ characters, summoned creatures, cohorts vs. dozens of enemies and it was exciting, challenging and fun.

Lastly, does Enworld have a search function on its messageboards? I'd surely like to find this kind of stuff myself.

The search function is limited to Community Supporters, people that have donated to help keep ENWorld going. The page to buy an account is under the EN World menu, "Community Supporter Accounts".

 

[sfedi]

IME combat is pretty fast.

Having said that, my players act fast and I don't have more than 4 players at a time (currently I have 2 or 3 per session)

 

[dvvega]

One thing I've instigated is a player who thinks more than one minute or so has just lost his initiative to a general "look around, see what's there" action. They get to make spot checks and listen checks to note anything "new" but that's it.

It happened to one player and everyone was like "booooo!!!!!" I just shrugged ... he makes the spot check, and DAMN him if he didnt' spot the invisible shimmer that gave the spellcaster away.

Nowadays I find the "useless combat guy" Spotting all over the place trying to find any invisibles just in case.

 

[3catcircus]

Couple of things that can speed things up:

1. As a DM, prepare combat cards (or character sheets) for every NPC.

2. As a player, do the same for your PC - a combat card detailing every single possible combination of effects that can affect your attacks, damage, AC, etc.

3. Only give the players to the count of 5 to act.

4. Preplan tactics for intelligent NPCs *prior* to the game (make this part of your prep.)

5. Consider "secret" initiative - i.e. the DM rolls everyone's initiative and simply announces when it is each player's turn - it eliminates the time-consuming detailed planning (during combat) that some players seem to try to do to coordinate their attacks.

6. For military or tactically-minded players, insist that they come up with "Battle Drills" or "Immediate Action Plans" - if they don't have them, they can't use their free action (speak) to try and plan anything more detailed than would take 1 second to say - i.e. - "Hit the ogre" is ok, as is "I'll flank the orc," but "Use this path to avoid any attacks of opportunity" (while tracing out the path with your finger, to the player whose character you are trying to explain this to) is unacceptable.