Making Melee Characters Useful at High Levels

[maggot]

Last night we had a big combat against giants. The party is 16th level, more or less. I was surprised to find that the least useful character against the giants was the barbarian. He had to move in to attack provoking an attack of opportunity, and then the giant would take a full attack on him, or worse, use awesome blow to send him 10 feet away so he had to approach again. Meanwhile the archer and spellcasters dropped giant after giant.

Perhaps giants aren't the best creature for the melee barbarian to fight, but lately the melee guy is seeming pretty second rate. Sure he gets 4 attacks if he is within 5 feet of someone at the start of the round. But that never happens. High level opponents have improved grapple to grab him, or awesome blow to send him flying, or they can just move away and take a single attack instead of a full round of attacks.

The only opponents that seems to require the melee guy are golems, and even then SR-bypassing spells and adamantine arrows do wonders against them too. And I have overused golems.

Any suggestions for making the melee guy more important. Either in adventure design or in some magic item or feat the guy should take.

 

[ForceUser]

There's a lot to be said for tactics. Giants are aggressive; go defensive and let them come to you. Let them spend a move action closing to within 10' to strike, so that on your action you can 5-foot adjust and get a full attack.

Regarding high level play and the melee character, there is plenty that the DM can do to increase the usefulness of the party tanks. One, damage reduction usually shuts down archers. Two, the more fights there are per day, the more useful the melee character becomes--wizards have finite resources, but fighters can fight all day long. Dungeons are useful for enforcing this paradigm: make it necessary for characters to move as quickly through the dungeon as possible to minimize the spellcasters' proclivity for demanding 8 hours' sleep after 2 combat encounters. Create situations that require spellcasters to burn spells and use resources outside of combat--chasms that need magic to be crossed, doors that need to be dispelled to be opened, etc. Three, grant magic items to the melee characters that overcome critical limitations--boots of flying, rings of invisibility, cloaks of displacement, cloaks of dimension door, and magic items that grant feats such as Spring Attack and Close Quarters Combat all help them overcome monsters with clear advantages over Medium creatures.

Although it is certainly on the meleer to fight tactically, the ability of the melee characters to be effective ultimately falls upon how the DM structures his adventures.

 

[Kurotowa]

Any suggestions for making the melee guy more important. Either in adventure design or in some magic item or feat the guy should take.

First, do an equipment check. Melee guys are the most effected by wealth totals under standard (as defined by the DMG). See if his total gear is about right or if he's fallen under.

Adventure design wise, perhaps try more humanoids. Especially in large numbers. Nothing makes a barbarian happier than to Great Cleave through a horde of orcs. Even just a smaller number of humanoids with class levels won't have the annoyances like reach and grapple.

See if he could be getting more spell support from the other PCs. If you're fighting giants then the melee guy should be getting an Enlarge Person to even the field. Maybe even a Greater Invisibility if you want to really help out. If the wizard doesn't want to help buff him, he should be getting a treasure share for potions of essential spells.

 

[Shadeus]

ForceUser has some good advise in there. I have a 20th-level dwarven defender that really hasn't had too many problems. He was definitely having issues with Improved Grab though; you just aren't going to beat too many creatures with a +56 grapple, which you can easily run into at that level. Close Quarters Combat was critical (didn't want to blow a ring slot on a ring of freedom of movement).

The other key was to get a good initiative. Improved Initative + a decent Dex was very key to him being able to get into the right position. In addition, we have a sorcerer with enlarge person in the party. Having trouble with giants? Get reach yourself! No more problems. That also eliminates the AoO from movement as well.

You are right though; smart foes will not stand next to a high-level fighter if they can avoid it. Unless you have an AC in the stratosphere, you are just asking for a power attacking fighter with 4 attacks (5 with haste) to bring you some serious pain. I suspect that raging barbarian with a two-handed weapon, say power attack 5, a +4 weapon to be doing in the neighborhood of 1d12 + 30 per hit. Not much is going to withstand 4-5 attacks of that guy. Of course, that last two have a low probability of hitting, but still that around 70 - 105 pts of damage a round.

 

[SBMC]

There is a lot to be said about melee characters – and there are all kinds, all of them great at what they do. Now let me say first I don’t intend here to make this yet another Barb vs. Fighter thread.

Fighters have tons of feats. Why? Well as the PHB says “they are the best at fighting”. A PC like a Barbarian is great in melee as a damage machine; and he gets that plus other class abilities and such. This is in contrast the fighter’s skills which lie in tactics as well as brute strength – tactics in combat derived from feats. As a case in point - a case like this a fighter with a good feat selection would do better. Giants have a size advantage and disadvantage; grappling can be a big problem. A fighter could afford to take Improved Grapple, close combat fighting (CW) and the like. As well as take some ranged feats along with melee feats: Far shot with a composite +4 Str Bow is mighty troublesome for a target as is a flurry of javelins tossed from someone with the quick draw feat plus perhaps those power ranged feat from CA (I think that is where they are…)– feats that a Fighter can afford to spend.

So you see in this scenario the Barbarian was not on equal footing; where as another combat class may have been. Thus it was not the situation but what the party had to bring into the situation that was the issue. In all encounters walking up in a rage and whacking away is not always the solution The Barbarian probably should have hung back, use ranged weapons (if he had any) and picked off the opponents that were heavily damaged by the rest of the party (like those he could take down in one round after they were already pounded).

Now of course there are scenarios where the Barbarian is clearly in a better situation than another class would be…

 

[Angel of Adventure]

Tactics are the key to all characters in melee, not just the fighters. I've seen many normally ineffective characters become effective by thinking thru their attack options and making the right choice. Currently, my Epic level party has a tank that dominated the game for several sessions but has been killed off in the last 2 games by poor tactics (not just his, but also the party's overall tactics).

Fighters need support, too.

 

[ForceUser]

With regard to dungeons, another thing that can help is the use of tight corridors--encounters in narrow hallways, for instance, increase combat opportunities for melee characters by limiting manueverability. Wizards are most effective on wide, flat battlefields with miles of visibility. Rogues are most effective in cramped alleyways and claustrophobic dungeon rooms.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Others have said things pretty well.

Step 1: Tactics check. Is the player being dumb? If he is, he should stop and see if the problem goes away.

Step 2: Equipment check. Does the character have appropriate gear for his level? A barbarian with a +5 moderate fortification mithral breastplate, belt of giant strength +6, and amulet of health +4, gloves of dex +4, and a ring of protection +4, a +3 adamantine animated heavy shield, +5 vest of resistance, boots of speed, cape of the Montebank, a few potions of fly, and a +1 keen holy cold iron greatsword is going to do a lot better than one with a +1 keen greatsword, gauntlets of ogre power, and a +2 chain shirt.

3. Tactics check two. A barbarian who picks up greater magic weapon, magic vestment, shield of faith, stoneskin, and inspire greatness/inspire heroics from his allies does a lot better than one who doesn't.

4. A little analysis. A barbarian who carries a bow (at 16th level, +1 flaming is pretty cheap) and uses it when the situation calls for it is a lot more effective in any situation where charging in isn't the best plan. If he has Quickdraw or a glove of storing, he can be the one who just takes a 5' step and full attacks the giants when they come charging up. A melee guy who is flexible is far superior to a melee character who isn't. (I play fairly regularly with a sixteenth level fighter/barbarian who I took Quickdraw and Rapid Shot to be able to unload with his bow in the first round and then full attack the bad guys after they charge him--for a lightly armored multiclass mutt, two levels of ranger to make that tactic work even better would be a good investment). Another key situational boost for a melee character is having a ghost touch weapon. Incorporeal creatures are pretty hard for most characters to damage, but a character with a ghost touch weapon does very well.

 

[monboesen]

If you follow D&D logic any melee fighter should be enlarged in almost any fight from level 1+ and polymorphed into a troll/stone giant/other large high str monster from level 7+. Its just that much af an advantage.

At level 16 the barbarian should expect a ton of buffs from his party (among those the aforementioned polymorph) in order to do hos job (keeping the giants away from softer targets).

That said giants are never fun for melee fighters. A giant hits well, does a ton of damage and have many hp. The best tactic is to let casters target their low will save with spells that will stun/daze/confuse/hold the giant and then let the meleers power attack the helpless giants to death.

 

[fuindordm]

Don't rely on a single weapon or tactic.

Obscuring mist works wonders against giants--if you have full concealment at 10' or more, kill the attacks of opportunity good-bye.

Ben