MyISPHatesENWorld
First Post
OK, so looking at everything released so far and leaning heavily on the pre-release PDF, I thought I'd see if 4e lets me create the character I want to play....
Character concept: A character with strong adventuring skills and movement that whacks things with a greatsword. My half-orc RogueX/FighterX/Barbarian1/Assassin with a Greatsword gets rebranded to a Human Rogue with a greatsword and Fighter Multiclassing Feats (with Half-Orc and Barbarian out, he's just glad male is still an option). To be fair, he started as a 1e Fighter/Assassin with a 2-handed sword so some of this he has seen before (including a little time as an elf Fighter/Thief in 2e, but he was young and experimenting, and doing it just a couple times doesn't mean you are).
Human Rogue 1
STR: 14 DEX: 18 CON: 14 INT: 08 WIS: 14 CHA: 08
FB: 13 RD: 17 WD: 13 HP: 30
Feats: Student of the Sword, Toughness.
Skills: Stealth, Thievery, Acrobatics, Athletics, Dungeoneering, Perception, Endurance, Nature.
Class Features: First Strike, +1 to attack and mark 1/encounter, Rogue Tactics (Brutal Scoundrel), Rogue Weapon Talent, Sneak Attack.
At Will Exploits: Deft Strike (1), Piercing Strike (1).
Encounter Exploits: Torturous Strike (1).
Daily Exploit: Rogue Attack (1).
OK, big downside - I still don't have any way to use a greatsword yet. If there is a feat to get the proficiency, it will have to wait, because otherwise there is an ability on my sheet I can't use (marking). If I'm marking, and it is working as intended, then creatures want to hit me more often, so I need to be able to take more hits, thus Toughness.
Minor downside - I'm dumb as a stump and about as personable (my character is too). But, I needed the WIS to be good at Dungeoneering and Perception, so that's just the way it has to be. I may need to swap out some DEX for STR if I want feats usable with a greatsword and/or to hit better with a greatsword, which could be really problematic as far as getting the most from some skills and being good with traditional Rogue weapons until I get my greatsword abilities where I want them to be.
Big upside - I have all the skills I want most. That's really, really, nice. The Fighter skill I thought would be meaningless lets me add Endurance, which from the description, is quite a boon to both the character concept and efficiency.
Minor upside - I have no social skills or inclination, which gives me a point in game to fulfill some aspect of the liquid input-output cycle while the frustrated amateur thespians roleplay high impact events like buying a pair of boots. If I have the feats left after getting the greatsword working, I'll look at adding Insight and maybe Intimidate someplace down the line (though heal looks pretty useful too).
Overall, a character that won't suck to play while I work toward getting to the character I want to play.
Now, looking down the road....
Human Rogue 10
STR: 16 DEX: 18 CON: 14 INT: 08 WIS: 14 CHA: 08
FD: 19 RD: 22 WD: 18 HP: 84
Feats: Student of the Sword, Toughness, Novice Power, Adept Power, FEAT, FEAT, FEAT.
Skills: Stealth, Thievery, Acrobatics, Athletics, Dungeoneering, Perception, Endurance, Nature.
Class Features: First Strike, +1 to attack and mark 1/encounter, Rogue Tactics (Brutal Scoundrel), Rogue Weapon Talent, Sneak Attack.
At Will Exploits: Deft Strike, Piercing Strike.
Encounter Exploits: Fighter Attack (7 or 3), Rogue Attack (3 or 7), Torturous Strike (1).
Daily Exploits: Fighter Attack (9 or 5), Rogue Attack (5 or 9), Rogue Attack (1).
Utility Exploits: Rogue Movement (10), Rogue Stance(6), Tumble(2),
Big Downside - I'm still struggling to see how I'm going to get the Greatsword working as well as it needs to. Particularly:
a) I have no daily power that I can use with a Greatsword.
b) I can't use my Rogue attacks with a Greatsword
c) Ummmm... I'm not proficient with a Greatsword, meaning I'm out the weapon type bonus(es) for it. Which is pretty much a non-proficiency penalty without being a negative number and perhaps means I'll be short a prerequisite for feats and/or powers for the greatsword.
But, I still have three feats - three feats, three problems solved? Hopefully... It wouldn't need to necessarily be a feat for each specific problem, a feat to allow a d8/2d4 weapon, a feat to allow a d10 weapon and a feat to allow a 1d12/2d6 weapon with each previous feat as a prerequisite might work work (depending on the math). Something like:
Warrior Rogue 1: Pick one weapon with a base damage of 1d8 or 2d4, that weapon is considered a light blade for purposes of being used with Rogue powers and class features.
Warrior Rogue 2: Pick one weapon with a base damage of 1d10, that weapon is considered a light blade for purposes of being used with Rogue powers and class features. This weapon choice replaces the weapon chosen for Warrior Rogue 1.
Warrior Rogue 3: Pick one weapon with a base damage of 1d12 or 2d6, that weapon is considered a light blade for purposes of being used with Rogue powers and class features. This weapon choice replaces the weapon chosen for Warrior Rogue 2.
Or, there can just be a list of Rogue powers that are usable and balanced for use with weapons that have a higher base damage. Or, there can a feat to allow a specific Rogue Power to be used with a specific larger weapon. However it works, hopefully it can be done with three feats.
Big Upside: Hard to say, everything good pretty much counts on being able to get the greatsword working, though getting it working with three feats left over would be a really big upside, two feats a big upside and one feat a minor upside.
As for costs:
a) About 4 of 7 feats. That's pretty steep...particularly since it might easily be 6 (or even 7). From the feats that have been released, there are some pretty valuable feats. If there are non-light-blade Rogue Attack powers, then that number drops quite a bit - but there hasn't been a hint of that. Not having 4-7 feats like not giving a combat advantage when surprised, getting plus 1 to all saves and getting +3 to attack when using an action point looks like it will really add up over time as some of these (like Alertness or say a hypothetical feat that allows you to stand from prone without granting a combat advantage which looks like about a feat value) are lifesavers and others really let a character shine.
b) 1 of 3 Encounter powers and 1 of 3 Daily Powers. Even if there are Rogue attack powers that work with the greatsword, there may be a couple defender powers worth spending a feat for...perhaps something that works with combat advantage that you would have more often than a Fighter or something that grants combat advantage that you can take better advantage of as a Rogue. Heck, there may even be a movement power or stance that is worth giving up a Rogue movement power or stance, though that seems unlikely.
It seems odd that the Fighter powers released haven't been weapon specific, especially after an entire article about how Fighters would be defined by the weapon they chose. The Rogue, on the other hand, has rigid weapon restrictions throughout both the class abilities and powers. It seems really odd to have to jump through this many hoops to make a Rogue that uses a greatsword instead of a shortsword. The system seems to make heavily armored Fighters that shoot fireballs out of their butts work just fine (just be sure to open the hatch), so I can't see why there appears to be such a "right flavor" restriction on Rogues.
Results:
Incomplete.
Can I make a good character that isn't what I want to play? Yeah, there is stuff that some people are going to enjoy like the aforementioned Armoredswordandshieldbob Fireballpants or cookie-cutter, halfling rogue which has a lot of ways to be a better, cookie-cutter, halfling rogue. Really, you could even make a cookie-cutter, halfling rogue that takes multiclass fighter feats to use with a shortsword or maybe rapier and probably end up with a pretty nice cookie-cutter, halfling rogue with multiclass fighter feats.
Can I make a good character that I want to play? Hard to say. Figuring four, eight-hour, weekly sessions a month, I can't see being consistently overshadowed, encounter after encounter, session after session, by people that play cookie-cutter builds straight from the PHB because I wanted to do something like use a different weapon. If the three hypothetical feats left (or other things in the PHB that haven't been released yet) get the greatsword up to speed and the character ends up being as effective on average as a cokie-cutter Rogue or cookie-cutter Fighter, then yes - and I'd even pay $14.95 a month to play those sessions online.
Character concept: A character with strong adventuring skills and movement that whacks things with a greatsword. My half-orc RogueX/FighterX/Barbarian1/Assassin with a Greatsword gets rebranded to a Human Rogue with a greatsword and Fighter Multiclassing Feats (with Half-Orc and Barbarian out, he's just glad male is still an option). To be fair, he started as a 1e Fighter/Assassin with a 2-handed sword so some of this he has seen before (including a little time as an elf Fighter/Thief in 2e, but he was young and experimenting, and doing it just a couple times doesn't mean you are).
Human Rogue 1
STR: 14 DEX: 18 CON: 14 INT: 08 WIS: 14 CHA: 08
FB: 13 RD: 17 WD: 13 HP: 30
Feats: Student of the Sword, Toughness.
Skills: Stealth, Thievery, Acrobatics, Athletics, Dungeoneering, Perception, Endurance, Nature.
Class Features: First Strike, +1 to attack and mark 1/encounter, Rogue Tactics (Brutal Scoundrel), Rogue Weapon Talent, Sneak Attack.
At Will Exploits: Deft Strike (1), Piercing Strike (1).
Encounter Exploits: Torturous Strike (1).
Daily Exploit: Rogue Attack (1).
OK, big downside - I still don't have any way to use a greatsword yet. If there is a feat to get the proficiency, it will have to wait, because otherwise there is an ability on my sheet I can't use (marking). If I'm marking, and it is working as intended, then creatures want to hit me more often, so I need to be able to take more hits, thus Toughness.
Minor downside - I'm dumb as a stump and about as personable (my character is too). But, I needed the WIS to be good at Dungeoneering and Perception, so that's just the way it has to be. I may need to swap out some DEX for STR if I want feats usable with a greatsword and/or to hit better with a greatsword, which could be really problematic as far as getting the most from some skills and being good with traditional Rogue weapons until I get my greatsword abilities where I want them to be.
Big upside - I have all the skills I want most. That's really, really, nice. The Fighter skill I thought would be meaningless lets me add Endurance, which from the description, is quite a boon to both the character concept and efficiency.
Minor upside - I have no social skills or inclination, which gives me a point in game to fulfill some aspect of the liquid input-output cycle while the frustrated amateur thespians roleplay high impact events like buying a pair of boots. If I have the feats left after getting the greatsword working, I'll look at adding Insight and maybe Intimidate someplace down the line (though heal looks pretty useful too).
Overall, a character that won't suck to play while I work toward getting to the character I want to play.
Now, looking down the road....
Human Rogue 10
STR: 16 DEX: 18 CON: 14 INT: 08 WIS: 14 CHA: 08
FD: 19 RD: 22 WD: 18 HP: 84
Feats: Student of the Sword, Toughness, Novice Power, Adept Power, FEAT, FEAT, FEAT.
Skills: Stealth, Thievery, Acrobatics, Athletics, Dungeoneering, Perception, Endurance, Nature.
Class Features: First Strike, +1 to attack and mark 1/encounter, Rogue Tactics (Brutal Scoundrel), Rogue Weapon Talent, Sneak Attack.
At Will Exploits: Deft Strike, Piercing Strike.
Encounter Exploits: Fighter Attack (7 or 3), Rogue Attack (3 or 7), Torturous Strike (1).
Daily Exploits: Fighter Attack (9 or 5), Rogue Attack (5 or 9), Rogue Attack (1).
Utility Exploits: Rogue Movement (10), Rogue Stance(6), Tumble(2),
Big Downside - I'm still struggling to see how I'm going to get the Greatsword working as well as it needs to. Particularly:
a) I have no daily power that I can use with a Greatsword.
b) I can't use my Rogue attacks with a Greatsword
c) Ummmm... I'm not proficient with a Greatsword, meaning I'm out the weapon type bonus(es) for it. Which is pretty much a non-proficiency penalty without being a negative number and perhaps means I'll be short a prerequisite for feats and/or powers for the greatsword.
But, I still have three feats - three feats, three problems solved? Hopefully... It wouldn't need to necessarily be a feat for each specific problem, a feat to allow a d8/2d4 weapon, a feat to allow a d10 weapon and a feat to allow a 1d12/2d6 weapon with each previous feat as a prerequisite might work work (depending on the math). Something like:
Warrior Rogue 1: Pick one weapon with a base damage of 1d8 or 2d4, that weapon is considered a light blade for purposes of being used with Rogue powers and class features.
Warrior Rogue 2: Pick one weapon with a base damage of 1d10, that weapon is considered a light blade for purposes of being used with Rogue powers and class features. This weapon choice replaces the weapon chosen for Warrior Rogue 1.
Warrior Rogue 3: Pick one weapon with a base damage of 1d12 or 2d6, that weapon is considered a light blade for purposes of being used with Rogue powers and class features. This weapon choice replaces the weapon chosen for Warrior Rogue 2.
Or, there can just be a list of Rogue powers that are usable and balanced for use with weapons that have a higher base damage. Or, there can a feat to allow a specific Rogue Power to be used with a specific larger weapon. However it works, hopefully it can be done with three feats.
Big Upside: Hard to say, everything good pretty much counts on being able to get the greatsword working, though getting it working with three feats left over would be a really big upside, two feats a big upside and one feat a minor upside.
As for costs:
a) About 4 of 7 feats. That's pretty steep...particularly since it might easily be 6 (or even 7). From the feats that have been released, there are some pretty valuable feats. If there are non-light-blade Rogue Attack powers, then that number drops quite a bit - but there hasn't been a hint of that. Not having 4-7 feats like not giving a combat advantage when surprised, getting plus 1 to all saves and getting +3 to attack when using an action point looks like it will really add up over time as some of these (like Alertness or say a hypothetical feat that allows you to stand from prone without granting a combat advantage which looks like about a feat value) are lifesavers and others really let a character shine.
b) 1 of 3 Encounter powers and 1 of 3 Daily Powers. Even if there are Rogue attack powers that work with the greatsword, there may be a couple defender powers worth spending a feat for...perhaps something that works with combat advantage that you would have more often than a Fighter or something that grants combat advantage that you can take better advantage of as a Rogue. Heck, there may even be a movement power or stance that is worth giving up a Rogue movement power or stance, though that seems unlikely.
It seems odd that the Fighter powers released haven't been weapon specific, especially after an entire article about how Fighters would be defined by the weapon they chose. The Rogue, on the other hand, has rigid weapon restrictions throughout both the class abilities and powers. It seems really odd to have to jump through this many hoops to make a Rogue that uses a greatsword instead of a shortsword. The system seems to make heavily armored Fighters that shoot fireballs out of their butts work just fine (just be sure to open the hatch), so I can't see why there appears to be such a "right flavor" restriction on Rogues.
Results:
Incomplete.
Can I make a good character that isn't what I want to play? Yeah, there is stuff that some people are going to enjoy like the aforementioned Armoredswordandshieldbob Fireballpants or cookie-cutter, halfling rogue which has a lot of ways to be a better, cookie-cutter, halfling rogue. Really, you could even make a cookie-cutter, halfling rogue that takes multiclass fighter feats to use with a shortsword or maybe rapier and probably end up with a pretty nice cookie-cutter, halfling rogue with multiclass fighter feats.
Can I make a good character that I want to play? Hard to say. Figuring four, eight-hour, weekly sessions a month, I can't see being consistently overshadowed, encounter after encounter, session after session, by people that play cookie-cutter builds straight from the PHB because I wanted to do something like use a different weapon. If the three hypothetical feats left (or other things in the PHB that haven't been released yet) get the greatsword up to speed and the character ends up being as effective on average as a cokie-cutter Rogue or cookie-cutter Fighter, then yes - and I'd even pay $14.95 a month to play those sessions online.
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