male playing female PC

[Guilt Puppy]

Simply put, it is a headache I don’t need. It is a headache my players (male and female) have expressed they don’t want. So, for the common good of my game, I don’t allow it. It is only fair. I do have to say, however, the “I wouldn’t play if I can’t play the opposite sex” argument just strikes me as a tad immature. It’s kind of like saying “I won’t play Monopoly unless I get to be the thimble,” or “I won’t play Trivial Pursuit, unless I get to be the blue pie.” My 6 year-old used to say things like that when we played Candyland. Suffice it to say, we didn’t play Candyland for a while, until she learned to behave better. I did the same thing when I was a child, so I guess the whole Bill Cosby routine about what you did as a child coming back to haunt you is truer than I wanted to believe.

I think you're misreading that statement (and being insulting about it in the process -- very childish of you! )... As much as wanting to cross genders is a "red flag" for certain GMs here, disallowing that kind of choice is going to be a red flag for certain role-players. It can indicate the level of control a GM wants to have over their players' characters, and the game in general -- for some players, this may seem too invasive, so they choose to play somewhere else.

This isn't to say that any GM who disallows gender changing is controlling and power-hungry et cetera, just that it fits into that point of view -- much like wanting to play a female character doesn't mean a male gamer has major gender issues and is seeking to work out some wacky inner demons and/or yugoloths.

So while we're talking about double standards, it might not be nice to insult players for wanting to play in the sort of game they want in order to defend your right to run the sort of game you want.

 

[William Ronald]

I think that there have been several good points raised on this thread. To me, the key question is "What are DMs and players in a given group comfortable with?"

For example, some DMs may disallow evil characters because they do not feel it fights the games that they run. Some may have seen evil characters played solely to disrupt the party or even to offend other players. Others may have no problem with evil characters.

To me, the gender issue is one of individual choice. If a DM has had people play a certain type of character badly, he may not be comfortable with that type of character in his game. I believe a DM and his or her players must determine what they wish to have in a campaign.

Obviously, some DMs such as the eloquent John Brown and Teflon Billy have seen some poor roleplaying of female characters. From what they have wrote on these boards, I can see why a DM might ban cross-gender roleplaying. However, I have seen some people on these boards do a superior job of playing female characters. (Black Omega among them.)


So, to wrap it up, I think it is possible for someone of one gender to do a fine job of roleplaying a character of a different gender. The consideration for a DM is the comfort level he has for this in his campaign. As I see it, this issue is not so much one of a universal right or wrong but individual choices. I think it might be wise to respect those choices.

 

[everchanging02]

<i>Originally posted by fusangite</i>
<b>I might conclude, based on my woefully incomplete and limited understanding of psychology and sociology, that the community from which you draw players is more removed from the social mainstream than the community from which I draw players.</b>

In responce to Guilt Puppy's comment on this, I don't believe Fusangite is saying that the group of players he draws from is main-stream, I think he is more saying that the 'main-stream group he pulls from' (IOW: the main-stream in his area) differs from that of the other.

Just my opinion of that comment.

 

[Oni]

Although I won't respond to all of Oni's post, including the lengthy mental acrobatics in the section on how my house rule discriminates against female players, I will take a shot at answering her question about why I've had more success running female NPCs than female PCs.

I guess it's a question of being "on" all the time. When I run a female NPC, the scope of the NPC's role is circumscribed by the plot I design. I am therefore able to plan-out and consider the NPC's possible reactions to most of the situations in which she will find herself. I obviously don't have that luxury when I run a female PC -- I have to be capable of improvising her reactions to a much wider range of events and situations. I think the enormity of such a task is a little too much for me.

First off, thanks for taking the time to answer my question. Your answer was pretty much what I was expecting, and a reasonable and valid answer at that.

As for the the bit about discrimating against female players, I wasn't really trying to be accusatory or anything, or trying to conjure up an overly complicated argument without any basis in reality. I stand by what I said as I think that is something that could have real impact on a gaming group and had thought of it as a practicle consideration. If for instance a woman is not allowed to play a cross-gender character in a predominately male run world then character after character is going to have to deal with having to be an outsider or an object of scorn if you hope to keep things realistic. I submit that some might not be comfortable having to assume that role and it could hamper their ability to have fun at the gaming table. If you allow cross-gender roleplaying for women but not for men, then you have a situation where you are telling some people they can do something, and other they can't do the same thing. It's simply a matter of creating unnecessary tension at the table, and a matter of fair play. People don't like being singled out, even by group.

Does any of this make sense, it's rather late so I'm not sure how coherent I'm being.

 

[mistergone]

This all begs the question: How many of you would play a character of the opposite sex in a LARP?!?!

HAAHA then I would bow to you as Lord of Freaks, Master of All that is Profane, May no Circus Contain You. But, I'd have someone watching you so as that you couldn't do anything freaky to me as I bowed. Back off man! And no, you can't lie and say you would play an opposite sex character in a LARP just to get the cool title.


Okay, now excuse me while I get my hip-waders on, I'm SO pissed off at the March 8th site now.

Founder, Bothered By March 8th (B.A.M.8)

Brought to you by the Foundation for Annoyance at Fictional Things

 

[Tsyr]

This all begs the question: How many of you would play a character of the opposite sex in a LARP?!?!

HAAHA then I would bow to you as Lord of Freaks, Master of All that is Profane, May no Circus Contain You. But, I'd have someone watching you so as that you couldn't do anything freaky to me as I bowed. Back off man! And no, you can't lie and say you would play an opposite sex character in a LARP just to get the cool title.

I've seen it happen three times in my life. Two females playing a male character, one male playing a female character. In fairness, in the latter case, the guy is an established transvestite anyhow, so it's not like this was just some "spur of the moment" thing.

It's not something *I* would do, no... But honestly, it no more "breaks the suspension of disbelief" than some guy walking around on his knees because he's playing a dwarf or halfling, which I have also seen done.

 

[mistergone]

I've seen it happen three times in my life. Two females playing a male character, one male playing a female character. In fairness, in the latter case, the guy is an established transvestite anyhow, so it's not like this was just some "spur of the moment" thing.

It's not something *I* would do, no... But honestly, it no more "breaks the suspension of disbelief" than some guy walking around on his knees because he's playing a dwarf or halfling, which I have also seen done.

Okay, backfire on me. Must... get... sarcasm font working... But really, the whole idea of people on their knees going "I'm a dwarf! I'm a dwarf!" Is just yet another, as I like to call them, PRIME EXAMPLE, why yours truly ain't be playin' no LARP.

LIGHTNING BOLT! LIGHTNING BOLT! SLEEEEP!

 

[Al]

In response to John Brown

John Brown- Well done on an interesting alternative insight and different thread of arguments to those already proposed. However, I do feel that there are inherent contradictions in your argument. Moreover, it stands clearly at odds with fusangite's argument in some areas.

As far as the caveat of: “but what if they are mature, responsible people that have demonstrated that they can play cross-gender roles?”, try this scenario. How would you feel if you were new to a group and didn’t get to play a female character, while others did, and the reason you got for this situation from your new DM was: “You haven’t demonstrated to me that you can role-play a female (or male)?” I don’t know about you, but I would feel pretty insulted by that.

I am not sure whether you are with Kahuna Burger and fusangite with this one, but they have certainly expressed sentiments that it is fine for females to play males but not vice versa. This scenario is a genuinely good argument, but if were to extend the scenario, it would also be insulting to allow females to play cross-gender whilst banning males from doing so.

In addition, the issue of what sex a character has only really has importance if sexuality plays a part in your game. It doesn’t in mine. My dragons don’t care if you are a male or female, they are equal opportunity eaters. Anyone trying to explore their sexuality through my game, is likely to receive a response something along the lines of “The Diamond Cabaret is just across the river, head over there if that is what you are looking for. We’re here to play a game.”

Again, this stands in stark contrast to what has gone before, and indeed implicitly in your own argument. In saying that gender only matters due to sexuality, you must also ban heterosexual players from playing homosexual characters- which has not been discussed. Conversely, homosexual players ought be allowed to play heterosexual characters of the opposite gender.

In any event, gender is more complicated than sexuality. It is fusangite and Kahuna Burger who are keen to assert that men and women have an irreconcilable psychological difference. Whilst I would not go this far, I would certainly argue that in terms of social perception and interaction there is a larger difference between the genders- even without romance in the game, society has accepted stereotypes and roles for each gender, which do impact upon social interaction. Gender only doesn't matter if you play in games where males and females are sociologically and psychologically identical; or in a pure dungeon-hack.

It doesn’t justify you playing a gender-opposite it my game. It is a statement about exploring character concepts without using the gender crutch.

However, nothing in your argument necessarily justifies banning cross-gender concepts. Personally, I go for the premise not to ban anything unless there is clear evidence of gain, rather than the premise of not allowing anything unless there is clear evidence of gain. The only argument raised is the one that some play cross-gender irresponsiby and immaturely, but then they can equally play same-gender irresponsibly and immaturely. You have offered a decent analysis of many arguments, but unfortunately you fair to bring sufficient burden of proof to call for a ban- and furthermore, are clearly at odds with fusangite and Kahuna Burger in your line of approach.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

a clarification

I am not sure whether you are with Kahuna Burger and fusangite with this one, but they have certainly expressed sentiments that it is fine for females to play males but not vice versa.

I fear I have been misunderstood. I do think it is EASIER for a woman to roleplay a man than vice versa, but I don't think that justifies banning one OR the other. I'm afraid I tailored my response too closely to the points I found interesting, without giving the general overview.

For the record, I have seen cross gender roleplay done very well, and would never preemptivly ban it in a group I ran. I have also seen it done somewhat badly, but this in general is by players that I wouldn't game with for other reasons, so its no game breaker.

I think there are concerns, but no greater than the concerns for when I as an atheist roleplay a very religious character - I may go overboard, playing their motivations in response to my (sometimes oppositional) interpretation of such people actions rather than actually getting inside the mindset. (the best cross gender roleplaying I've seen done has always been by those who had many friends of the opposite sex.) My twisted interpretation may lead to a characterization which is very insulting to those with strong religious convictions, especially when they know that I have none. I must consider the exact same concerns when playing cross gender, esp in a mixed gender group.

Kahuna Burger

 

[Oni]

A couple questions, to sate my curiousity.

What's everyone's take on a woman playing one of the archtypes/stereotypes that most people here seem to find offensive for a man to play?


For you DM's out there, do these archtypes/stereotypes exist in your campaign worlds or have they been completely purged? If so, was it because you believe them to be false, or because you found them offensive?