male playing female PC

[lokiqc]

..naahh I'm just kidding. I wont send a Pit Fiend to crush the PC! The only PC I've ever killed on purpose was a kender...it had to stop!! lol

edit didn't make any sense

 

[Mark]

..naahh I'm just kidding. I wont send a Pit Fiend to crush the PC! The only PC I've ever killed on purpose was a kender...it had to stop!! lol

If you change your mind and in a fit of rage you send the Pit Fiend in....make it a female Pit Fiend...

 

[seasong]

And now, with my obligatory on-topic posts finished, some additional commentary I can't seem to keep a lid on.

1. The Race Analogy: The idea of a human being playing an elf or dwarf being analogous to a male playing a female is absurd. That's because there is no living model of a fully 3-dimensional dwarf or elf character.

Just wanted to say... what an insightful comment! This is probably why I prefer all-human campaigns, because I tend to feel like the elves/dwarves/et all are humans in funny hats.

3. Stay Away From Sex: If you're going to play a female character, try to stay away from romance and sex. Consciously or not, when you do this, you're using the game to work out your own psychological issues around inter-gender relations.

This, on the other hand, was just silly. We do this regardless of which gender we're playing at romance and sex with. Roleplaying romance, by nature, is going to involve our psychological issues in sexual relations.

This isn't to suggest you should never roleplay but the processes by which women persuade men or other women of things are amongst the hardest female actions for men to comprehend and therefore play out.

This will, of course, vary by player. But as general advice for the majority of gamers out there, probably pretty rock solid advice.

6. Be Old:

Absolutely! I've found that role-playing an older person accurately (for those of us who are not) is far, far harder for most players than any simple transgendering. By playing an older woman, you have ensured that we will be offended by the caricature portrayal of the elderly, completely distracting us from the crappy female performance.

Er, that is what you meant, right?

 

[Pielorinho]

Were I forbidden from playing a crossgendered PC by a DM, I'd bow out of the game. Not because it's so important to me that I be able to genderbend, but because I'd see it as a warning sign that me and that DM wouldn't be able to get along. I'd also strongly suspect, absent evidence to the contrary, that the DM would have some issues with women.

We keep talking about whether it's appropriate to genderbend when playing a bard. We might consider the roleplaying techniques of The Bard himself: remember that in his plays, female characters were always played by male actors, even when those female characters were sexually involved with male characters.

If it was good enough for Shakespeare, it's good enough for me.

Daniel

 

[seasong]

We keep talking about whether it's appropriate to genderbend when playing a bard. We might consider the roleplaying techniques of The Bard himself: remember that in his plays, female characters were always played by male actors, even when those female characters were sexually involved with male characters.

Of course, we are also left with the impression that women in The Bard's world are either shrews, crazy, or so innocent as to be devoid of personality . At least he didn't have the frigid/whore extremist dichotomy going on that seems so common among modern players.

 

[Oni]

I contributed to another thread that became very heated on this subject last fall. Last fall, though, the thread was about the question of DMs disallowing men from playing female characters. I was one of the DMs who disallowed this.

Surffice it to say I disagree with you. I certainly do not advocate disallowing cross-gender roleplaying at the gaming table. I do not recall from your previous post if you disallow all cross-gender roleplaying or only prevent male players from playing female characters, but I believe there are problems inherent to both approaches. In the case of the former, if you are running any kind of reasonably realistic world there are going to be inequalities between the genders, socially speaking, in most cases. By barring your players from playing cross-gender you handicap one gender or the other socially, and it is not fair to force the player to have to deal with these issues if they do not wish to. If you are running the typical patriarchal psuedo-medieval world then this policy will regularly discriminate against female players, and in a hobby where woman are already fairly rare this is all the more tragic. If the latter is the case and you disallow cross-gender roleplaying for males only then I think that you become responsible for increasing the social striation between the genders. I don't deny that fact that there are difference between the genders both physiologically and socially, but I believe it is a poor choice to reinforce these at the gaming table. Not only that but the extent to which the mental facilities of the genders might differ is arguable, and I do not believe that they are so great that they cannot be overcome with a small amount of thought and care.

This thread, however, seems to be about the question of male players playing female characters. Obviously, there's no problem with female players playing male characters.

I think you overly emphasize the differences between the sexes (on a mental level). People come in a wonderous variety of personalities, and while gender is a part of this equation there are so many other factors that shape people that we can understand in each other. It has been my personal experience that just about any personality type you can imagine occurs in both genders to varying degrees, and if you can understand a perosonality type within your own gender the leap to cross-gender does not seem so great.

Although I have DMed several female NPCs with moderate success, my own attempt to play a female character did not work out. Based on my own experience, though, I thought I'd offer a little advice to men considering playing female characters.

I am curious, why do you believe you have been able to play female NPC's with some success, but have been unable to duplicate this with a PC? I understand that there is a difference between the two, and I can imagine a few reasons myself, but I am curious as to your own thoughts on the matter.

1. The Race Analogy: The idea of a human being playing an elf or dwarf being analogous to a male playing a female is absurd. That's because there is no living model of a fully 3-dimensional dwarf or elf character. Perhaps if there really were elves and dwarves in the world, people's reactions to humans playing them might be similar to the general reaction to men playing women ie. "Oh my God, this guy doesn't have a clue about real elves. The elves I know aren't anything like that. I don't think he has the slightest clue about elven motivation and thought patterns."

The funny thing is I've actually heard this in regards to elvish characters on a couple of occasions, actually I think this comes from the fact that we have fairly strong archetypes for these characters, though it does strike me as being a bit silly in that they don't exist. The thing is this, even though we do have women to look at as a model for roleplaying female characters, it still tends to devolve into some more stereotypical mode, and we forgot that they are individuals that can greatly depart from how we might see women in general. So to hold up some example and say women don't act like that seems odd to me. Sure some women may not act like that, or even most women, but the fact remains people are individuals and it is not unrealistic for a stereotype/archetype to be broken.

2. Easily Adapted Classes: If men are to consider playing women, I'd suggest looking for character types based on attributes that men and women use similarly. I would suggest that, for instance, playing a female Fighter, Paladin or Barbarian would be a lot easier for most men than playing a female Rogue, Sorceror or Bard. This is because, in many ways, playing a melee combat-focused woman doesn't really involve changing gender but rather sex. Generally, the women who are attracted to such roles are going to have more in common psychologically (and even physically) with men than women in more socially-based roles. Other character types I think men will have an easier time playing female characters in are Monks -- an ascetic role is often about complete denial/transcendence of sexuality.

I don't really think this is a necessity, just about any personality type can go with just about any class. Not only that I think some of the attraction of playing a cross-gender character is to try to look at things a bit from the other side of the fence, and what you suggest here somewhat defeats that purpose.

3. Stay Away From Sex: If you're going to play a female character, try to stay away from romance and sex. Consciously or not, when you do this, you're using the game to work out your own psychological issues around inter-gender relations. More importantly, by engaging in quasi-masturbatory role playing, you're spoiling the game for your fellow players. Unless of course your fellow players don't mind or are right in there with you in which case I suggest that therapy may be a better use of your weekly gaming time.

I'm not fond of the way that you've stated yourself here, it really does feel like your saying that by addressing such things you automatically have issues, and you seem to indicate a certain perverseness simply in considering such things. Personally I think there are a couple of factors that come into play in regards to this specific topic. First is the maturity level of the game you happen to be involved with, some people don't wish to address such things, and that is perfectly understandable. On the other hand if the game is of a more mature nature then I believe these things are important. Sex and romance are powerful forces in the motivation of people and if you want to consider your character thoroughly as a fully developed personality then this something that is going to be a significant factor in that. I think the advice is sound on a certain level depending on the comfort level of your game, but I disagree with the reasoning behind it.

4. Game With Someone Female: I recommend strongly against men playing female characters in games where there are no female players or GM. Female players are going to be the first people to notice you failing to play a truly female character and can provide you with advice and correction if your character seems to be heading off-track. Also, by having an actual model of female behaviour present the whole time you're playing, you can have constant inspiration on which to base your gaming.

For the most part I agree with this. I personally I don't caution so heavily against playing a female character in the the absense of female players, but on the other hand it never hurts to have inspiration or insight. Though I have encountered women who call out a character and say a woman would never act like that, only to see them turn around and do the exact same thing themselves a shortwhile later. So as in all things it pays to wary of the quality of the people you associate with.

5. Dice-Based Interactions: If you don't follow my advice and choose to build a socially-focused female character or you have a non-socially-focused character who finds themselves unavoidably entangled in a social situation, resort more readily to dice-rolling rather than playing-out interactions. Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information and other social skill rolls should be substituted for "acting like a woman" whenever possible. This isn't to suggest you should never roleplay but the processes by which women persuade men or other women of things are amongst the hardest female actions for men to comprehend and therefore play out.

I find this bit of advice very odd, as it becomes very difficult to play a convincing character of anysort when you just rely on the numbers on your character sheet. I would think that you'd have a far better chance of portraying a convincing female character by at least trying as opposed to not doing anything at all. Truly I'd rather see someone at least try and fail than not to bother at all.

6. Be Old: In my experience, it is easier to play middle aged or old women than it is to play women of reproductive age. Men and women become more chemically similar as they age and thus behaviourally converge to some degree. Furthermore, the "crone" role is one of the easiest roles to adopt because it is a fairly monolithic, simple archetype in literature and myth. The fantasy genre also has disproportionately more roles for older women versus younger women, thus making it easier to fit in to the literary genre. I'd recommend that if you choose to play a female spellcaster, you should select a character over 45.

You didn't say what I thought you were going to say when I read the heading to this section. My thoughts are an older player would probably hand female characters better based on life experience, and that is what I thought you were going to address. However I find myself faced with a point I kind of disagree with. I don't see anything wrong with people playing older characters, but honestly I would think that playing a character significantly older to yourself would be just as foreign, or at least nearly so, as playing cross-gender.

Anyway, this post will probably be the nicest, most conciliatory thing I ever say about transgender RP.

Fair enough, we're all entitled to our own opinions, and obviously whomever you play with at the very least do not disagree so strongly that it would cause them to step away from your table. I thank you for your post as it gave me something to frame my own thoughts around. Anyway I don't expect you to up and change you mind, but I hope that you can see where I'm coming from here. Happy Gaming!

 

[Kahuna Burger]

In addition, I would suggest that stereotypes and archetypes are as, or more, important in fashioning fictional characters than evidence from experience. Thus, even though real-world experience supports my claim, what really matters in designing and playing characters in a well-defined genre like fantasy is what archetypes and stereotypes the character is based on. In virtually all literary genres, men are depicted as "simpler" than women.

This is a sort of odd idea. There is far more fantasy written from a male point of view than womens. Discounting bodice rippers, I'd say that is true of fiction overall. When women read, they are expected to identify with male outlooks and feelings. While I agree that women have an easier time playing men than vice versa, I'd say its for exactly the opposite reasons - Women are more likely to have been exposed to complex male thought the other way around. Just as its easier for a gay man to convincingly play the straight role that a majority of the culture has been molding him into than for a straight man to come off with a convincing gay role, Its easier for women to play men because we've been reading male first person or main character stories all our lives, and taught to undrestand and see things from men's points of veiws* while men have simply been less immersed.

*(A lot of men will deal with frustration by acting angry or unfocusedly violent. Its just how they deal with frustration. Most women, AFAIK, learn very early on that even though this man is acting a way that they would have to be in a killing rage to act, its just frustration. On the other hand, the majority of adult men I know honestly think that when a woman reacts to frustration by crying its because she's really "THAT upset" by whats happening.)

Is it a double standard to say men are taller than women? Is it a double standard to say men are stronger than women? No. It's just obvious.

actually, its wrong. Or poorly enough phrased to be meaningless. The next time I reach up to get something off the top shelf for one of my store's male customers, I'll remember that I can't possibly be taller than him. Its very simple - if the variation within two groups on a trait is significantly larger than the variation between the two groups, the difference isn't worth noting except in trivia and situations where the majority of the populations has already been eliminated, leaving the extremes. This is true of height, somewhat of strength and definitly of roleplaying ability. (I think women are though to be better roleplayers just because its usually the really good roleplaying women who see any point in the game.) I find it hard to believe that you have played with enough women or men to make that judgement meaningful. Stick to the "I've been burned and have these phobias" argument, it's perfectly valid. Don't try to make it universal or externally rational.

I see no universal problem with men playing women, but have seen some particular players who I would discourage from it. The worst kind of "guys playing girls" (IMHO) are the ones with a heavy Virgin/Whore dicotomy going on. Every woman is either a good girl virginal palidan type or all out moral-less slut. When they're part time DMs who play all the NPCs women the same way, its a good time to leave the group...

Kahuna Burger

 

[Numion]

I've had a player who every now and then playes a female. IMO it's not that good an idea, and I've decided not to allow it in the future. It's just a bit too creepy, if you know what I mean?

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Of course, we are also left with the impression that women in The Bard's world are either shrews, crazy, or so innocent as to be devoid of personality . At least he didn't have the frigid/whore extremist dichotomy going on that seems so common among modern players.

Call me a philistine, but once I read past the really famous ones, I found the works of shakespeare to be some of the most overrated dreck I'd ever read*. A great poet, but lousy at characterization, silly plots and a horrible judge of women. Men played a man's stereotypes very well - whodathunkit?

*It was when I realized that the Moonlighting version of The Taming of the Shrew was a better story than the original that I let go of the "he's good cause my teachers said so" mindset.

Kahuna Burger

 

[diaglo]

i'm sorry if a DM has a hard time, (i wonder if any have posted here ) with someone wanting to roleplay a female.

you are not graded, anymore, by the DM on your performance. if you are. the DM is doing something wrong. (you were back in 1ed and 4edHM)

yes, i have seen men totally blow the role.

and yes, i have seen a woman do the same thing.

i have also seen men blow the role of men.

and women that of women.

does that mean they are needing therapy?

someone is reading too far into other people's minds/lives. get one of your own, if you can't handle it.