males playing females and the other way around, opinions?

[Theo R Cwithin]

How many chances do you give someone though? I'm not saying it has to be Shakespeare here, but, there should be at least enough of a personality in the character to delineate the character's gender, species and general culture.

Heck, I don't really care if it's done badly. I care that it's there AT ALL. There's a million ways to play a character, and probably most of them are not exactly going to win an Oscar. I'm groovy with that. All I want is the player to put in enough of an effort that no one at the table is ever surprised by basic facts about the character that should be pretty obvious from casual observation.

I really don't think that's too much to ask in a role playing game. If your character is physically strong, I expect that to affect your portrayal of the character, just as if the character is physically weak. If the character is female, there are a million and one ways to bring that to the table, some great, some, not so much.

I'm just asking for one.

I guess I've just never seen this problem at the table. Some players are a bit more, umm, expressive in their RP that others but I can't imagine someone playing an RPG without some basic attempt at RP, whether that attempt is brilliant, bad, silly, offensive, or whatnot.

But at that point its seems they're either the type to just sit on the sidelines doing more watching than playing (that's where I used to be!); or else they're the type to to play the game more as a purely tactics game. Either way, it still doesn't bother me much, as long as they're enjoying themselves and not ruining it for others.

Of course, in my experience, players are few and far between so I can't be too terribly picky who I choose to play with.
A player who's creepy, smells bad, or is an offensive jackass? No.
A player who's unable to RP, or not truly interested in RP? Meh, I think I could work with that.

 

[Kingreaper]

In the same way, I've seen more than my share of female characters that in no way actually played up the fact that they were female. To the point of other players being surprised on the rare occassion when it came up in play.

It's not that gender-bending character's are a bad thing. They're not. It's an interesting challenge. But, that's the point right there. It's a challenge. If the player can't be bothered bringing a major element of the character to the table, why bother in the first place?

Maybe it's just my life experience (I've had friends who I thought were male turn out to be female and visa versa*); but I really don't think it IS that major a part of the character.
It's more important than hair-colour, but it's not even close to the gap between a human and an elf.
In an egalitarian society a much smaller gap than the gap between a football jock and a computer nerd.

*and some who when asked "are they male or female?" my most accurate answer would be "Maybe"

How would one bring gender to the table in your opinion?
I'm having trouble thinking of any significant aspect of bringing gender to the table which isn't:
A) Mainly about the characters sexuality (my friend cross-playing as a cross-dressing gay male had the characters gender come up reasonably often due to flirting with the other PCs who were all male, and mostly straight)
B) Something anatomical that is glossed over in most gaming
C) Simply stereotyping the gender
D) Playing a race with large sexual dimorphism, or huge cultural pressure towards gender roles (ie. the Drow)
or
E) The GM bringing up the gender through NPC reactions.

 

[jonesy]

I also find it just a little jarring to have to switch gears when remembering the guy across the table is running a female PC when running my NPCs. I am uncertain why that is harder to remember but I suspect it has to do with the minimal impact it has except when interacting with the NPCs - Unlike race or class which have mechanical aspects that affect the game pretty much continuously.

Sure. But that's a different thing. That's about player motivation to actually play as the thing he claims to want to play as.

If a player roleplays something, anything, which has an aspect which should be immediately apparent to the other PC's, and then neglects to make that aspect immediately apparent, then that aspect shouldn't belong to the character sheet in the first place. He has chosen a character he clearly has no motivation to portray.

If you go through a campaign playing a short human, and at the end of the campaign someone says "you were short?" then you weren't. Because if you were, everyone would have known. Therefore what it says on your sheet doesn't match up to what you were actually playing.

One of the best character concepts I've seen was by a girl who intentionally left out gender from her characters sheet. On equipment she'd written various types of clothing which were the type that wouldn't really say anything at all about gender. The miniature she used was someone in a deep dark hooded cape. It was a strraight up human fighter, who was always kneedeep in combat. She portrayed the voice of the character as deeper than her own normal voice. The campaign went on for a long time before gender ever came up. Some players were surprised when others said they'd thought it was a he. When the characters asked him/her he/she refused to reveal it, saying it was none of their business, and that it would be against the customs of his/her people to reveal it to outsiders. The player never revealed what it was. It was a great mystery, and a good concept.

 

[pawsplay]

I find this to be offensive. Why is the DM describing the reactions of a PC to "stimuli" in the game world? Isn't that the player's job? Be as lewd as you like but please don't usurp player agency.

Must... spread... XP...

 

[pawsplay]

Unless you point at yourself and say "tämä tykkää jäätelöstä".

"This one likes ice cream."

That's almost poetry.

 

[Abraxas]

Sure. But that's a different thing. That's about player motivation to actually play as the thing he claims to want to play as.

If a player roleplays something, anything, which has an aspect which should be immediately apparent to the other PC's, and then neglects to make that aspect immediately apparent, then that aspect shouldn't belong to the character sheet in the first place. He has chosen a character he clearly has no motivation to portray.

If you go through a campaign playing a short human, and at the end of the campaign someone says "you were short?" then you weren't. Because if you were, everyone would have known. Therefore what it says on your sheet doesn't match up to what you were actually playing.

How do you roleplay "short" or things like "brunette" or "blue eyed"? These are things, IME, that are described when the character is first introduced and then really have little impact from then on. I'm playing a rogue that is 5'6" - other than me bringing it up for who knows what reason - it isn't going to enter into the game. I could choose to make it a character trait, that the character is defensive about being short, but what does that really bring to the game - not much as far as my fun is concerned. I am much more interested in the character being an amoral bastard who killed his family (because he is psychotic and believed they were doppelgangers) and only plays the hero because he gets paid to be violent

One of the best character concepts I've seen was by a girl who intentionally left out gender from her characters sheet. On equipment she'd written various types of clothing which were the type that wouldn't really say anything at all about gender. The miniature she used was someone in a deep dark hooded cape. It was a strraight up human fighter, who was always kneedeep in combat. She portrayed the voice of the character as deeper than her own normal voice. The campaign went on for a long time before gender ever came up. Some players were surprised when others said they'd thought it was a he. When the characters asked him/her he/she refused to reveal it, saying it was none of their business, and that it would be against the customs of his/her people to reveal it to outsiders. The player never revealed what it was. It was a great mystery, and a good concept.

See this is funny to me. You even said gender didn't come up for a long time - but shouldn't it have, if it was really important? This concept really doesn't require the character only be male or female - it just requires that the character hide the truth.

Of course it depends on the type of RPG, but in any involving the characters getting injured the healer/medic is probably going to find out. And it really isn't much of a mystery if the player just refuses to tell you - its not much different than the player not telling you the characters age, height, hair color, etc and just describing the character as concealing it.

 

[jonesy]

How do you roleplay "short" or things like "brunette" or "blue eyed"? These are things, IME, that are described when the character is first introduced and then really have little impact from then on.

How would blue eyed and brunette affect the game? Half the time I don't even remember those in the real world.

But height has mechanical implications. What if there had been climbing involved? Or tight tunnels only he could stand in?

If your campaign doesn't involve gender issues then gender isn't an issue. If it does, then it is.

Hmm. I wonder what kind of a campaign one could make that revolved around the color of PC's eyes..

You even said gender didn't come up for a long time - but shouldn't it have, if it was really important?

But that's just it. For the purposes of that campaign it wasn't important, until the other characters took notice and made it so. The point is, she'd thought of it long before it ever became an issue. She'd been prepared to never make it an issue.

 

[Barastrondo]

I would be, and am, more ticked that someone would assume I'm sexist or homophobic because I find it easier to not have to deal with it. I also find it just a little jarring to have to switch gears when remembering the guy across the table is running a female PC when running my NPCs. I am uncertain why that is harder to remember but I suspect it has to do with the minimal impact it has except when interacting with the NPCs - Unlike race or class which have mechanical aspects that affect the game pretty much continuously.

That's a very different take than I have. To me, I have a much easier time remembering a character's gender than whatever powers he or she possesses; it's part of the overall visual package, usually part of the character's personality, and often part of the original inspiration of the character. I'd be really worried if I couldn't even remember a character's gender; I love seeing personalities at the gaming table, not ciphers.

Of course, "except when interacting with the NPCs" (or for that matter, "except when interacting with one's fellow PCs") is probably a very variable yardstick.

IME, I have yet to see a character concept that requires the character to be male or female. IMO, I honestly don't see how a player could need their charatcer to only be male or female that doesn't include elements that I don't care to have in a game I play for entertainment.

There's a character in a game I run who is loosely modeled on Ezio Auditore from Assassin's Creed II. He started out in the countryside because he was caught in the wrong young woman's bed, and sent out to stay with a family friend until the scandal died down. There's a strong tension there because his host's daughter clearly finds him attractive, but naturally his host is very protective of his daughter's virtue.

I think it would be a very interesting character if you changed the genders responsible: is she a lesbian or bisexual, and still interested in daughters? Or is she a temptation to the landowner's son? But the character itself would be distinctly different. Even though the game has been completely PG-rated in terms of sexual content (though, like any D&D game, pretty much R-rated when blades are cutting up human flesh), even innocent sexual tension changes its dynamic with gender, and creates different situations.

 

[Bagpuss]

IME, I have yet to see a character concept that requires the character to be male or female.

Do you not read books, watch films, learn any history?

Mulan could not have been be anything but female and still be the same character neither Jean of Arc.

Priestess of Idun as I mentioned earlier. With the release of Dark Sun Campaign Setting how about a Templar from the city state of Nibenay? And those are just ones where there is a gender restriction.

Of the top of my head, in the Don't Rest Your Head RPG (currently reading), a working exec Mum that can't sleep because she is so stressed trying balancing work and home life, while fighting against a glass ceiling in the office. It would not be the same character concept if it was a male exec.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

IME, I have yet to see a character concept that requires the character to be male or female.

Nor have I, but I just don't even care. I disallow all sorts of character concepts -- and so does every other decent GM out there -- and yet an infinite number of character concepts remain.

"I can't play a psychotic loner who has no real reason to stay with the group?" No, you can't.

"I can't play a total pacifist, who literally would not hurt a fly (and hates when others do), in your World's Largest Dungeon campaign?" No, you can't.

"I can't play an adult red dragon?" No, you can't.

"I can't play a super-speed character who is very difficult to hit, but dies when he gets hit?" No, you can't.

And on, and on. By contrast, "I can't play a cross-gender PC?" has almost never been an issue in our local games. I literally cannot remember the last time someone asked to play cross-gender in our local games, much less went into a depressed emo tailspin over it not being allowed.