In this thread, ameinild introduces a mana pool system that allows characters to use powers more than once, along with rules that promote power flexibility and a way to recharge mana. Later in the thread with the help of Stalker0, I developed another version that I would like to try in a game sometime (I'll copy it below). However, I think this system only works with changes in some powers and rules. I'll explain the problems I foresee, but first here's the mana point system:
[sblock=Mana Pool System]Mana Pool System
All characters have two pools of mana that limit how much they can use their powers. Their Daily Mana Points (DMP) pool governs their use of daily powers, while their Encounter Mana Points (EMP) pool governs their use of all powers in an encounter. When a character uses a power or ability that costs mana, that power or ability cannot be used again before the end of the character's next turn. A character's EMP is fully recovered after a short rest, however, their DMP is only fully recovered after an extended rest.
Mana Costs
All abilities that cost DMP cost an equal amount of EMP, and the EMP cost will be ommitted for brevity from the costs below. DMP can be used in place of EMP at no additional EMP cost, if say a player wants to use an encounter power but is out of EMP.
The first use of a power granted by your race or a magic item per encounter or per day (as per the type of power) is free. Using racial abilities beyond the first use or multiclass feat abilities costs 1 EMP or 1 DMP. Using attack powers, utility powers, or item powers beyond the first use costs 1 EMP or 1 DMP for Heroic tier powers, 2 EMP or 2 DMP for Paragon tier powers, and 3 EMP or 3 DMP for Epic tier powers.
Item powers are determined by the lowest tier where the power becomes available, and if you have a more powerful weapon, you can still access the lesser effects at the appropriate costs. For example, the Duelist's Weapon's activated power always costs only 1 DMP even for a +6 Duelist's Weapon. A player with a +6 Frost Weapon can choose to activate its power to deal 2d8 damage at the cost of 2 DMP (the 1d8 version costs 1 DMP, and the 3d8 version costs 3 DMP). Of course, a player with a +4 Frost Weapon can't pay 3 DMP to use the 3d8 damage version of the power; the weapon does not have that ability.
Maximum Mana
Your maximum Encounter Mana Pool starts at 2 mana and your maximum Daily Mana Pool starts at 1 mana. Every level where you would learn an attack power of the appropriate type, the maximum mana in that pool increases by 1. Every level where you would learn a utility power, the maximum mana in both pools increases by 1, except at level 2 where only your Daily Mana Pool increases by 1. At level 30, the maximum for both of your mana pools is 15.
[sblock]Encounter Mana Points
Level 01: 2
Level 03: 3
Level 06: 4
Level 07: 5
Level 10: 6
Level 11: 7
Level 12: 8
Level 13: 9
Level 16: 10
Level 17: 11
Level 22: 12
Level 23: 13
Level 26: 14
Level 27: 15
Daily Mana Points
Level 01: 1
Level 02: 2
Level 05: 3
Level 06: 4
Level 09: 5
Level 10: 6
Level 12: 7
Level 15: 8
Level 16: 9
Level 19: 10
Level 20: 11
Level 22: 12
Level 25: 13
Level 26: 14
Level 29: 15[/sblock]
Increased Power Selection
At levels when you would replace (not retrain) one attack power with another (levels 13, 17, 23, and 27 for encounters and levels 15, 19, 25, 29 for dailies), you instead keep your old power and choose a new power to gain.
Mana Recharge
Once per turn when you use an at-will attack power (including the basic melee attack and the basic ranged attack) in combat, you can spend a healing surge as a free action without gaining any hit points. If you do, you regain 1 EMP. This increases to 2 EMP at the 11th level and to 3 EMP at the 21st level.
Power-Recovering Powers and Abilities
Changes to powers and abilities that usually recover other powers are for the most part self-explanatory. Powers whose only primary effect is to recover one other power in most cases probably should not costs mana (i.e. Soul Burn doesn't cost mana, while the [Class] Resurgence powers do). Powers that recover daily powers are usable only once per day, regardless if they cost mana to use or not. Divine Miracle sets your EMP to 3 if it's under 3. Epic Trick costs mana, but can only be used once/day. Unlike other powers that recover daily powers, its recover daily powers option does not recover EMPs. For Spell Recall, the first time the chosen spell is used, it doesn't cost any mana. Powers that have a special effect if you have no more daily or encounter powers remaining instead have that special effect if you have no more than 3 DMP or EMP, respectively, remaining after using the power.[/sblock]
TLDR: You get an encounter mana pool and a daily mana pool. Encounter powers require encounter mana points. Daily powers require an equal amount of encounter mana points and daily mana points. Heroic tier abilities cost 1 mana, Paragon abilities cost 2 mana, and Epic tier abilities cost 3 mana. Included are attack powers, utility powers, item powers, racial powers (first use is free), and multiclass feat powers; all these can be used more than once as long as you have the mana. Notably, powers gained from class features do not work under this system.
The mana points you have increase with your level; you start off with 2 EMP and 1 DMP at level 1, and it's 6/6 at level 10, 11/11 at level 20, and 15/15 at level 30 (those levels aren't where your mana points increase; I'm just giving you a snapshot at the three levels). Instead of replacing powers when you level, you learn new powers. You can recover EMP by using an at-will attack and spending a healing surge. Powers and abilities that recover powers work a bit differently, but they're mostly easy to convert.
So, there are some problems with this if you just use the powers as they are written.
First and most obvious are the really overpowered powers. They're not so bad when they can only be used once per day or encounter, but power balance is critical in a mana point system or that one broken power will just be used over and over. It's impossible to balance every power exactly, but it's important to at least nerf the really strong powers. I've identified some below. Please let me know if you see any other problem powers.
Second is stunlocking or other forms of condition-locking. Even under the normal rules, with stuff like Divine Miracle and encounter powers that stun, it's possible to stunlock monsters. It'd be much easier under the mana system with its reusable powers. Condition-locking is probably fine for normal monsters or minions, but not for elites or solos.
I was thinking of giving elites and solos an unmodified save (solos get a +5 bonus to this otherwise unmodified save) against their dazed or stunned condition at the beginning of their turn, with a success eliminating the dazed condition (so they get a full turn) or downgrading the stunned condition to the dazed condition (so they get an action that turn). This may need to be applied similarly to powers that take over the monster's turn like Delusions of Loyalty (Warlock 19) and Curse of the Dark Delirium (Warlock 29), as well as the immobilized and slowed conditions. Also, something may need to be done about the prone condition, maybe getting up is a minor action for them? What do you think?
Third is the Cleric class in several ways. First, with powers like Consecrated Ground and the Cure Wounds series, they can heal people outside of combat without using healing surges (i.e. when everyone's out of surges). I don't know what to think about this. On one hand, this might make parties with a Cleric much more powerful than parties without a Cleric, which suggests I should give other leader classes some (slightly worse?) utility powers that heal without using Healing Surges. On the other hand, I'm worried parties will force their Clerics (and leaders if I use the above fix) to save their DMPs for healing, which turns them into Healbots again. I really don't know what to think about this
.
The other problem with Clerics is Cure Light Wounds, Cure Serious Wounds, and Mass Cure Light Wounds all cost 1 mana. No one will use Cure Light Wounds. I want to bump Cure Serious Wounds and Mass Cure Light Wounds to higher tiers. Unfortunately, the only higher tier utility class powers are level 16 and level 22. I was thinking Cure Serious Wounds at level 16 and Mass Cure Light Wounds at level 22, due to their greater out-of-combat utility. Is this a good/bad idea? Do you think I should move some powers down in level, like Cloak of Peace?
Lastly, should racial powers be included in this? I wanted Half-Elves to be able to use their power more than once per encounter, but I've since realized some racial abilities are really strong like Elven Accuracy. They might have to be excluded from this system like powers gained from class features.
Are there any other problems you see with this system, or do you have any suggestions? Please let me know! Thanks
[sblock=Mana Pool System]Mana Pool System
All characters have two pools of mana that limit how much they can use their powers. Their Daily Mana Points (DMP) pool governs their use of daily powers, while their Encounter Mana Points (EMP) pool governs their use of all powers in an encounter. When a character uses a power or ability that costs mana, that power or ability cannot be used again before the end of the character's next turn. A character's EMP is fully recovered after a short rest, however, their DMP is only fully recovered after an extended rest.
Mana Costs
All abilities that cost DMP cost an equal amount of EMP, and the EMP cost will be ommitted for brevity from the costs below. DMP can be used in place of EMP at no additional EMP cost, if say a player wants to use an encounter power but is out of EMP.
The first use of a power granted by your race or a magic item per encounter or per day (as per the type of power) is free. Using racial abilities beyond the first use or multiclass feat abilities costs 1 EMP or 1 DMP. Using attack powers, utility powers, or item powers beyond the first use costs 1 EMP or 1 DMP for Heroic tier powers, 2 EMP or 2 DMP for Paragon tier powers, and 3 EMP or 3 DMP for Epic tier powers.
Item powers are determined by the lowest tier where the power becomes available, and if you have a more powerful weapon, you can still access the lesser effects at the appropriate costs. For example, the Duelist's Weapon's activated power always costs only 1 DMP even for a +6 Duelist's Weapon. A player with a +6 Frost Weapon can choose to activate its power to deal 2d8 damage at the cost of 2 DMP (the 1d8 version costs 1 DMP, and the 3d8 version costs 3 DMP). Of course, a player with a +4 Frost Weapon can't pay 3 DMP to use the 3d8 damage version of the power; the weapon does not have that ability.
Maximum Mana
Your maximum Encounter Mana Pool starts at 2 mana and your maximum Daily Mana Pool starts at 1 mana. Every level where you would learn an attack power of the appropriate type, the maximum mana in that pool increases by 1. Every level where you would learn a utility power, the maximum mana in both pools increases by 1, except at level 2 where only your Daily Mana Pool increases by 1. At level 30, the maximum for both of your mana pools is 15.
[sblock]Encounter Mana Points
Level 01: 2
Level 03: 3
Level 06: 4
Level 07: 5
Level 10: 6
Level 11: 7
Level 12: 8
Level 13: 9
Level 16: 10
Level 17: 11
Level 22: 12
Level 23: 13
Level 26: 14
Level 27: 15
Daily Mana Points
Level 01: 1
Level 02: 2
Level 05: 3
Level 06: 4
Level 09: 5
Level 10: 6
Level 12: 7
Level 15: 8
Level 16: 9
Level 19: 10
Level 20: 11
Level 22: 12
Level 25: 13
Level 26: 14
Level 29: 15[/sblock]
Increased Power Selection
At levels when you would replace (not retrain) one attack power with another (levels 13, 17, 23, and 27 for encounters and levels 15, 19, 25, 29 for dailies), you instead keep your old power and choose a new power to gain.
Mana Recharge
Once per turn when you use an at-will attack power (including the basic melee attack and the basic ranged attack) in combat, you can spend a healing surge as a free action without gaining any hit points. If you do, you regain 1 EMP. This increases to 2 EMP at the 11th level and to 3 EMP at the 21st level.
Power-Recovering Powers and Abilities
Changes to powers and abilities that usually recover other powers are for the most part self-explanatory. Powers whose only primary effect is to recover one other power in most cases probably should not costs mana (i.e. Soul Burn doesn't cost mana, while the [Class] Resurgence powers do). Powers that recover daily powers are usable only once per day, regardless if they cost mana to use or not. Divine Miracle sets your EMP to 3 if it's under 3. Epic Trick costs mana, but can only be used once/day. Unlike other powers that recover daily powers, its recover daily powers option does not recover EMPs. For Spell Recall, the first time the chosen spell is used, it doesn't cost any mana. Powers that have a special effect if you have no more daily or encounter powers remaining instead have that special effect if you have no more than 3 DMP or EMP, respectively, remaining after using the power.[/sblock]
TLDR: You get an encounter mana pool and a daily mana pool. Encounter powers require encounter mana points. Daily powers require an equal amount of encounter mana points and daily mana points. Heroic tier abilities cost 1 mana, Paragon abilities cost 2 mana, and Epic tier abilities cost 3 mana. Included are attack powers, utility powers, item powers, racial powers (first use is free), and multiclass feat powers; all these can be used more than once as long as you have the mana. Notably, powers gained from class features do not work under this system.
The mana points you have increase with your level; you start off with 2 EMP and 1 DMP at level 1, and it's 6/6 at level 10, 11/11 at level 20, and 15/15 at level 30 (those levels aren't where your mana points increase; I'm just giving you a snapshot at the three levels). Instead of replacing powers when you level, you learn new powers. You can recover EMP by using an at-will attack and spending a healing surge. Powers and abilities that recover powers work a bit differently, but they're mostly easy to convert.
So, there are some problems with this if you just use the powers as they are written.
First and most obvious are the really overpowered powers. They're not so bad when they can only be used once per day or encounter, but power balance is critical in a mana point system or that one broken power will just be used over and over. It's impossible to balance every power exactly, but it's important to at least nerf the really strong powers. I've identified some below. Please let me know if you see any other problem powers.
- Divine Regeneration (Demigod 26) up to 5 times per day at level 29 is ridiculous (maybe it's better at regeneration equal to your highest ability modifier?).
- Blade Cascade (Ranger 15) deals hundreds of damage at the low cost of only 2 DMP and EMP, and you have more chances to hit with stuff like Armor Splinter (probably needs to be nerfed somehow, but how?).
- Rain of Steel (Fighter 5) costs only 1 DMP and EMP and I guarantee it or Unyielding Avalanche (Fighter 15) will be up every combat (I'd probably change the automatic 1[W] damage to one Str vs. AC attack that deals 1[W] damage if it hits per round).
- Rain of Blows (Fighter 3) and other multi-attack powers are fixable with the multi-attack houserule in my sig (basically non-Ranger ones must attack different targets each hit).
Second is stunlocking or other forms of condition-locking. Even under the normal rules, with stuff like Divine Miracle and encounter powers that stun, it's possible to stunlock monsters. It'd be much easier under the mana system with its reusable powers. Condition-locking is probably fine for normal monsters or minions, but not for elites or solos.
I was thinking of giving elites and solos an unmodified save (solos get a +5 bonus to this otherwise unmodified save) against their dazed or stunned condition at the beginning of their turn, with a success eliminating the dazed condition (so they get a full turn) or downgrading the stunned condition to the dazed condition (so they get an action that turn). This may need to be applied similarly to powers that take over the monster's turn like Delusions of Loyalty (Warlock 19) and Curse of the Dark Delirium (Warlock 29), as well as the immobilized and slowed conditions. Also, something may need to be done about the prone condition, maybe getting up is a minor action for them? What do you think?
Third is the Cleric class in several ways. First, with powers like Consecrated Ground and the Cure Wounds series, they can heal people outside of combat without using healing surges (i.e. when everyone's out of surges). I don't know what to think about this. On one hand, this might make parties with a Cleric much more powerful than parties without a Cleric, which suggests I should give other leader classes some (slightly worse?) utility powers that heal without using Healing Surges. On the other hand, I'm worried parties will force their Clerics (and leaders if I use the above fix) to save their DMPs for healing, which turns them into Healbots again. I really don't know what to think about this
.The other problem with Clerics is Cure Light Wounds, Cure Serious Wounds, and Mass Cure Light Wounds all cost 1 mana. No one will use Cure Light Wounds. I want to bump Cure Serious Wounds and Mass Cure Light Wounds to higher tiers. Unfortunately, the only higher tier utility class powers are level 16 and level 22. I was thinking Cure Serious Wounds at level 16 and Mass Cure Light Wounds at level 22, due to their greater out-of-combat utility. Is this a good/bad idea? Do you think I should move some powers down in level, like Cloak of Peace?
Lastly, should racial powers be included in this? I wanted Half-Elves to be able to use their power more than once per encounter, but I've since realized some racial abilities are really strong like Elven Accuracy. They might have to be excluded from this system like powers gained from class features.
Are there any other problems you see with this system, or do you have any suggestions? Please let me know! Thanks
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