Mana, Shamans, and the Cultural Misappropriation behind Fantasy Terms

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Dire Bare

Legend
I generally agree, but sometimes even if done with respect, if it's still offensive, it's on the person doing the offensive act for being ignorant.
I think it's important when trying to respectfully appropriate a cultural element for D&D, your home game or a published product, to be mindful and aware of the issues surrounding cultural appropriation and specific stereotypes and systemic racist tropes in regards to the specific cultures you are borrowing from. And try to avoid furthering all of that, of course.

But I also think you need to go into your design understanding that you might get it wrong, despite your best efforts. And that's okay! Don't let that stop you from trying! Be open minded to criticism, especially from folks connected to the cultures you borrow from. Be willing to listen, and then change your design to make it even better.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and don't just be open-minded to criticism . . . . actively go out and seek it! If you are a white guy designing some D&D elements inspired by Asian mythology . . . . try to go find some Asian American gamers (preferably specific to the culture you are borrowing from) willing to critique your work! Or, well, Asian Canadian, Asian Australian . . . Asians born-and-raised in the West. It's cool to get critique from Asians-from-Asia also, but they have a very different lived experience to those of Asian descent in the West.
 
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Dire Bare

Legend
Yeah. Fair enough. I can see that. There is a side point though that you'll see people claiming membership of a culture in order to "be offended" which would be rather difficult as that culture doesn't exist anymore.

This isn't really a thing.

Sure, the ancient Celts aren't around anymore. Their culture was absorbed by the Romans and the Germanic peoples and modern day Celts have little more than language and place names to connect them to their ancient past. Sure, we don't know a lot of the details of the ancient Celtic culture, including specifics on their druids and bards, the ancient Celts weren't big on written records (ogham not withstanding) and much of their history and lore has been lost to time. It can even be argued that genetically the ancient Celts became so intermixed with the invading groups that a Celtic lineage is meaningless, at least genetically speaking.

But fact remains, there are plenty of folks who identify, today, as Celts and claim a connection stretching back to those ancient times. There are folks who identify as druids (Celtic heritage or not), and again claim a connection to the ancient druids from pre-Roman, pre-Viking, pre-Christian times. It's certainly true that modern ideas of Celtic and druidic identity are more romanticized than real . . . . but modern day Celts and modern day druids aren't claiming membership of these cultures and religions "in order to be offended". That idea itself is pretty damn offensive.

People are claiming connection to the ancient past, Celtic, Viking, what-have-you . . . . because they want a connection to an imagined time when things didn't suck, like they do today in the modern world (well, perceived suck at least). They aren't looking for group membership so that they can have something to complain about. Jeesh.

When creating art inspired by ancient cultures . . . . don't assume the culture is "dead" and nobody cares anymore. You'll probably be wrong. Do your research and see if modern groups do claim a connection to those cultures, real or perceived, and honor those connections. That doesn't mean drop druids and bards from your D&D game, but when using those elements or designing new takes on those elements, take the same approach you would with Asian-inspired fantasy (or fantasy inspired by any other living culture).

Culture doesn't die. It evolves.
 

Dire Bare

Legend
If Shaman=Druid, then there is no need to use the term shaman is there? It's included under druid. So, all those races that list having shamans, can instead have druids and that is actually bringing it in line with the contradictory rules.

Druids are not shamans.

We don't know an awful lot of the specifics of druidic belief from ancient Celtic times. The ancient Celtic druids may have been very shamanic . . . or not. However, modern day notions of druids, in fantasy literature, in popular mythology, in modern day neo-pagan religions . . . do have some overlap with shamanism, but the concepts are not interchangeable.

A better solution to the shaman problem D&D has, isn't dropping shamans from the game and replacing them with druids. It's elevating shamans to the same level as druids, as potentially powerful characters. We need a good shaman class in the core rules, one that avoids "primitive" stereotypes like savagery or even "noble savagery". When a shaman character is as likely to be an orc as they are an elf or a halfling . . . from a nomadic tribe or from an urban settlement . . . . that's the way to go!
 

If Shaman=Druid, then there is no need to use the term shaman is there? It's included under druid. So, all those races that list having shamans, can instead have druids and that is actually bringing it in line with the contradictory rules.

So, where's the problem?

Because Druid is a character class and shaman is not. And the two are quite different by game rules, other than those few exceptions the DM may want to employ bu using that little bit from the Monster Manual. There are enough confusing, multiple uses of similar words and terms in 5E and there is no need to add yet another one to the list by pretending that all shamans are actually Druids.
 

reelo

Hero
We need a good shaman class in the core rules, one that avoids "primitive" stereotypes like savagery or even "noble savagery".

Do you have any real-world examples of shamanistic civilizations that qualify for being percieved as the opposite of "primitive/noble savage" ? I would be hard-pressed to find any. Most shamanistic cultures I can think of fall loosely onto a "tribal/egalitarian/nomadic/hunter-gatherer" spectrum. As soon as you start having "civilization" (as in "civitas", meaning cities, however small) with social stratification, centralized power-structures, etc, shamanism tends to get abandoned in favour of a more "organized" form of belief.
 

Sadras

Legend
Do you have any real-world examples of shamanistic civilizations that qualify for being percieved as the opposite of "primitive/noble savage" ? I would be hard-pressed to find any. Most shamanistic cultures I can think of fall loosely onto a "tribal/egalitarian/nomadic/hunter-gatherer" spectrum. As soon as you start having "civilization" (as in "civitas", meaning cities, however small) with social stratification, centralized power-structures, etc, shamanism tends to get abandoned in favour of a more "organized" form of belief.

I was just about to post something along these lines but you said it perfectly here.

D&D lore is not about making value judgements on human history.
 

Do you have any real-world examples of shamanistic civilizations that qualify for being percieved as the opposite of "primitive/noble savage" ? I would be hard-pressed to find any. Most shamanistic cultures I can think of fall loosely onto a "tribal/egalitarian/nomadic/hunter-gatherer" spectrum. As soon as you start having "civilization" (as in "civitas", meaning cities, however small) with social stratification, centralized power-structures, etc, shamanism tends to get abandoned in favour of a more "organized" form of belief.

The Oracle of Delphi was shamanistic in its practice, according to some scholars. But it's more the exception that proves the rule.
 

Doug McCrae

Legend
D&D lore is not about making value judgements on human history.
One could hardly get a clearer, simpler, value judgement than Good and Evil in the D&D alignment system. That’s what its proponents like about it. A GM can look at the alignment of an NPC or monster and quickly determine its behaviour. It's also a way of judging a PC's actions.

As to whether D&D has anything to say about human history -

1e PHB: "Druids can be visualized as medieval cousins of what the ancient Celtic sect of Druids would have become had it survived the Roman conquest."

2e PHB: "The cleric class is similar to certain religious orders of knighthood of the Middle Ages: the Teutonic Knights, the Knights Templar, and Hospitalers."
 
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Dire Bare

Legend
Do you have any real-world examples of shamanistic civilizations that qualify for being percieved as the opposite of "primitive/noble savage" ? I would be hard-pressed to find any. Most shamanistic cultures I can think of fall loosely onto a "tribal/egalitarian/nomadic/hunter-gatherer" spectrum. As soon as you start having "civilization" (as in "civitas", meaning cities, however small) with social stratification, centralized power-structures, etc, shamanism tends to get abandoned in favour of a more "organized" form of belief.

Part of the problem with shamans, and also the barbarian class, in D&D . . . is the supposed duality of primitive cultures versus civilized cultures. The idea that so-called primitives are simpler and less advanced, and that as civilization rose and spread it quite naturally replaced what came before, with the primitives, the barbarians, existing only in the margins of the world. This view of culture isn't unique to D&D, but rather D&D pulls from a long tradition in both literature and even in the social sciences of viewing cultural evolution as progressive . . . that primitives cultures naturally give way to more complex civilized ones.

Like so many entrenched ideas, this isn't supported by modern social science. Hunter-gatherer and nomadic cultures are not simpler than urban and settled cultures, they are just organized differently. Both types of cultures are equally complex in culture, social structure, religious belief, mythology, and sometimes even technology and knowledge of the world. There are modes of knowledge held by hunter-gatherers and nomads today that are more advanced that the knowledge of so-called civilization.

The barbarian class, of course, is directly inspired by Conan and other similar heroes from pulp fiction. Conan was, in the context of Robert E. Howard's stories, a barbarian from the uncivilized north. The class was later expanded to also cover barbarians inspired by real world cultures. But what is a barbarian? Barbarians were not Roman, they were the peoples of Europe who resisted and fought against the Roman Empire. They were dehumanized as simple, savage, barbaric . . . lesser, than the Romans. But those ancient "barbarian" cultures were not simple, were not more or less savage than the Romans themselves, and they were not all nomads or hunter-gatherers either. They just were opposed to Rome.

The barbarian class has continued to evolve in D&D, and now barbarians can be of any race and come from any culture, settled or nomadic. They still embody that "primitive" archetype, but have also expanded beyond it somewhat.

We can do the same with shamans. In fact, D&D has already done this in both 2nd and 4th edition (maybe 3rd too?).

Most religious specialists that social science would identify as shamanic are from hunter-gatherer or nomadic cultures, at least traditionally. But as our understanding of culture and religion grows, we see shamanic practices in "civilized" cultures, we see how the many so-called shamans world-wide differ from the limited archetype, and we also see how more "modern" practitioners aren't as different from shamans as we used to think. Plus, not only have some folks in modern Western society revived traditions of paganism and druidism, but they have also revived traditions of shamanism. And just like neo-paganism and neo-druids, neo-shamans are often more romanticized than truly connecting to an existing shamanic tradition. But these are very real religious traditions none-the-less.

In my view, D&D needs a quality core shaman class that is just as archetypal and fun to play as a druid, cleric, wizard, or warlock. And just like all of those classes don't truly model historical (or even modern) examples, the D&D shaman should honor and respect real-world shamans, but also embrace the fantastic archetype and move beyond trying to embody a real-world religious practice. D&D barbarians can come from "civilized" or "primitive" cultures, so should the D&D shaman.

For some "civilized" examples of shamans, other than modern-day Western practitioners . . . . how about the mediums of the 19th century? These European practitioners didn't call themselves shamans (not sure the term had been appropriated yet by scientists) . . . but they did act as intermediaries between the spirit world and the mortal world. Instead of "primitive" ritual tools, they used crystal balls, ouija boards, and tarot cards . . . instead of dances and chants, they used seances. How about practitioners in the West who claim they can intercede with angels (spirits of God) and/or devils (spirits of Satan) on behalf of mortals?

EDIT: Oooo, I almost forgot . . . . what about the ancient Greeks? They were civilized, no? We often view them as one of the cornerstones of Western Civilization! Greeks worshiped a pantheon of gods . . . but they were also animists. Animism is the belief that nature is filled with spirits; spirits of the land, of the waters, of the sky, of the dead, of animals . . . . it's already been pointed out that some scholars feel that Greek oracles were possibly shamanic in nature, and it's very likely that other ancient Greek religious practitioners were as well.
 
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Sadras

Legend
One could hardly get a clearer, simpler, value judgement than Good and Evil in the D&D alignment system. That’s what its proponents like about it. A GM can look at the alignment of an NPC or monster and quickly determine its behaviour. It's also a way of judging a PC's actions.

As to whether D&D has anything to say about human history -

1e PHB: "Druids can be visualized as medieval cousins of what the ancient Celtic sect of Druids would have become had it survived the Roman conquest."

2e PHB: "The cleric class is similar to certain religious orders of knighthood of the Middle Ages: the Teutonic Knights, the Knights Templar, and Hospitalers."

There is no value judgement made ON human history.
I believe your post does not provide contrary evidence when one takes into account the preposition.
 

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