Mana, Shamans, and the Cultural Misappropriation behind Fantasy Terms

[TheSword]

That is a good question. Since you initially brought up being ahead of the curve, presumably you can answer: who do you think decides where it lies?

And was my expectation unreasonable that our hobby considers its placement along the curve? Is it unreasonable to expect that hobby walks forward on its own without having to be dragged along as dead weight by the rest of popular culture, to which D&D belongs? Are you suggesting that our hobby should remain ignorant of the curve and its placement therein? Should we not know its contours? Or is the question of “who decides?” not really being asked in good faith? Is it yet another rhetorical stonewalling tactic meant to send the conversation down an irrelevant spiral of slippery slope arguments? So what purpose does your question here really serve in this discussion, TheSword?

What do you really want TheSword out of this conversation? That things stay the same in our hobby? You can be honest if that’s truly what you want. That we all refrain from thinking critically about our hobby? Why does it clearly make you so clearly uncomfortable that people are reflecting on our hobby’s reliance on problematic pulp tropes and language? Why does a hobby that relishes in vanquishing undead in deepest, dark dungeons so afraid of confronting the skeletons in its own closet?

All that said, I apologize that asking people in our hobby to think about our use of language in tropes in our fantasy elf games. I realize now that this apparently an unreasonable request that is tantamount to asking for the moon.

I would like d&d to follow the general consensus in the industry... which seems to be about confounding stereotypes; creating representation in the hobby at all levels; and changing monolithic ideas that make people think about real world racism they suffer when they play the game. I see these things a making real steps to make the hobby inclusive.

I’d like WoC to canvas opinion and obtain reactions and sort through the positive and negative to decide what is best for the hobby as a whole. Not be beholden to a small but vocal crowd on twitter or forums.

I’d like measured progress that genuinely benefits people not knee jerk reactions and hand wringing, based on white room progress. In short progress is great, and I’m all for it. Let’s make sure it really is progress though.

 

[Aldarc]

Thank you for the earnest answer.

 

[TheSword]

Thank you for the earnest answer.

Thanks for pushing the envelope, researching the topic, posting a really interesting link and challenging the community to be better.

 

[Raunalyn]

OTOH, 5e D&D only uses shaman to mean "religious figure in evil, canabalistic, tribal, primitive societies- see druid".

Where, specifically, does it actually say this? Shaman, as far as I recall from 2nd edition on, is sort of like a spirit druid. In fact, 2nd edition had a supplement devoted specifically to that. Is it possible that you are using hyperbole here?

You folks have a good time endlessly chasing your tails as folks who have a vested interest in making sure that you never come to anything approximating a consensus will continue to troll these types of threads just to stir the pot.

You mean like you're doing?

 

[Raunalyn]

Yeah, color me surprised. Guess that's told me.

Well, if you are going to accuse someone of doing the exact same thing you are doing, then be prepared to have it pointed out. And since you're an expert at it, I was pointing it out. See how that works?

 

[Aldarc]

FWIW, would love to play proper shamans in this game. A number of my homebrew settings in D&D and elsewhere have a Spirit World. 4e made the Spirits a power comparable to the gods and the primordials and an actual part of the presumed setting.

I also love the Goetic in Invisible Sun that is all about making pacts and bargains with intermediary powers (angels, demons, spirits). It’s far more active than the D&D warlock. It’s the John Constantine sort of warlock and not the eldritch blaster warlock of D&D.

 

[Maxperson]

Stop exaggerating the issue, please. It doesn't have to be ahead of the curve. I have consistently been asking for people in our hobby to critically reflect and consider where along the curve's placement it is. That is hardly requiring it to be ahead of the curve, only that it shows a willingness to walk forward on its own feet without being dragged behind.

So only you and those on your side get to exaggerate the issue? Fair is fair.

 

[Maxperson]

That is a good question. Since you initially brought up being ahead of the curve, presumably you can answer: who do you think decides where it lies?

You told him that calling it ahead of the curve was an exaggeration, so presumably you can answer as well, and he asked you the question first. It's a dodge to turn the question back at him like that.

 

[Maxperson]

Where, specifically, does it actually say this? Shaman, as far as I recall from 2nd edition on, is sort of like a spirit druid. In fact, 2nd edition had a supplement devoted specifically to that. Seems that the person who is making this statement is you.

Not even 5e does that. 5e explicitly uses shaman in non-evil, non-cannibalistic and non-primitive ways.

 

[Aldarc]

Max, don’t try to start making trouble between TheSword and me now that the conversation is becoming more amicable and fruitful.