Mana, Shamans, and the Cultural Misappropriation behind Fantasy Terms

[Crimson Longinus]

Seriously?

Good grief, what does a writer have to do? Lovecraft was quite open in his bigotry and used his writing to promote his racist views. Numerous works tie straight into this. Do I need to list them or can we take that as given? Are you seriously questioning the notion that Lovecraft was a bigot? Or, are you questioning that his bigotry never appeared in any of his mythos works?

We all know that Lovecraft was a horrible bigot. Boycotting living people for their obnoxious views makes perfect sense. Boycotting people who have been dead for ages for similar reasons makes zero sense.

 

[Fenris-77]

Seriously?

Good grief, what does a writer have to do? Lovecraft was quite open in his bigotry and used his writing to promote his racist views. Numerous works tie straight into this. Do I need to list them or can we take that as given? Are you seriously questioning the notion that Lovecraft was a bigot? Or, are you questioning that his bigotry never appeared in any of his mythos works?

What, exactly, do you mean by "selective blindness"?

I mean that rather than identify the issue in question, and cull it out, they choose to just pretend the whole set of texts is taboo. That generally means they also feel very free to lob charges of racism at anything even remotely Lovecraftian. It's perfectly possible to enjoy the Mythos, and use it games, without dragging along it's awful racist component. Putting your fingers in your wars and shouting racism is certainly one way to go, just not a way I think is helpful.

 

[Aldarc]

It's an academic construct. That's why I think arguments about cultural appropriation and its use fall rather flat.

IMO, the fact that it is an academic construct divorced from its original cultural context and (mis)applied to other cultures seems like a point of evidence that it was culturally appropriated.

 

[Raunalyn]

We all know that Lovecraft was a horrible bigot. Boycotting living people for their obnoxious views makes perfect sense. Boycotting people who have been dead for ages for similar reasons makes zero sense.

I agree. He was also a product of the time he lived in.

Might as well boycott T.S. Eliot and Roald Dahl for their anti-semitic views, or Dr. Seuss.

This is derailing the conversation, though.

 

[Raunalyn]

I mean that rather than identify the issue in question, and cull it out, they choose to just pretend the whole set of texts is taboo. That generally means they also feel very free to lob charges of racism at anything even remotely Lovecraftian. It's perfectly possible to enjoy the Mythos, and use it games, without dragging along it's awful racist component. Putting your fingers in your wars and shouting racism is certainly one way to go, just not a way I think is helpful.

Tends to happen a lot, unfortunately

 

[Hussar]

We all know that Lovecraft was a horrible bigot. Boycotting living people for their obnoxious views makes perfect sense. Boycotting people who have been dead for ages for similar reasons makes zero sense.

I dunno. I don't exactly go out of my way to buy Mein Kampf or incorporate it into my games. And he's been dead about the same amount of time.

It's not about boycotting though. It's about recognizing that

A) the Mythos and many of the mythos stories are grounded in some extreme racism.
B) using Mythos stories and elements from Mythos stories without examination is tantamount to approval of the message. Or, at the very least, gives the appearance of approval.

Given the mountain of fantasy fiction out there, I'm not sure we need to enshrine one of our most horrid examples of humanity as a source of material for the game. It's kind of like how they don't use Lovecraft's bust as a writing award anymore after handing one to a black author. Does make things kinda uncomfortable. "Yeah, Dave, I know the writer of this stuff I'm using in the game called you a sub-human stain on existence who should be murdered in your sleep, but, his ideas are just SOOOO cool." is a conversation I'd rather not have with my players. Or my children for that matter.

 

[Fenris-77]

IMO, the fact that it is an academic construct divorced from its original cultural context and (mis)applied to other cultures seems like a point of evidence that it was culturally appropriated.

Appropriated from whom? Thats the question. If it were a cultural term I'd be with you, but it's not. The charge of misapplication is complicated. One, it's not obvious that even were that generally the case, which it isn't, that that fact speaks to misappropriation at all. The movement is in the wrong direction. Nothing is being appropriated from those cultures. Rather an academic discipline is struggling to find broadly descriptive ideas that allow for the comparison of ideas. That process is always one of incremental adjustments. More broadly, the fact that the term is applied in some specific cases in ways that certain cultures disagree with isnt evidence that that is how the term is used in general. That argument runs counter to the way academic disciplines use words like shaman. Every academic puts their own spin on it, and has an individual thesis, and modifies elements of the definition. It's not monolithic.

 

[Maxperson]

I dunno. I don't exactly go out of my way to buy Mein Kampf or incorporate it into my games. And he's been dead about the same amount of time.

Since he was talking about using the non-racist portion of Lovecraft's works, and there's a ton of it, how about you remove every racist portion of Mein Kampf and let us know how much is left.

False Equivalences are false.

 

[Olrox17]

I dunno. I don't exactly go out of my way to buy Mein Kampf or incorporate it into my games. And he's been dead about the same amount of time.

It's not about boycotting though. It's about recognizing that

A) the Mythos and many of the mythos stories are grounded in some extreme racism.
B) using Mythos stories and elements from Mythos stories without examination is tantamount to approval of the message. Or, at the very least, gives the appearance of approval.

Given the mountain of fantasy fiction out there, I'm not sure we need to enshrine one of our most horrid examples of humanity as a source of material for the game. It's kind of like how they don't use Lovecraft's bust as a writing award anymore after handing one to a black author. Does make things kinda uncomfortable. "Yeah, Dave, I know the writer of this stuff I'm using in the game called you a sub-human stain on existence who should be murdered in your sleep, but, his ideas are just SOOOO cool." is a conversation I'd rather not have with my players. Or my children for that matter.

I think you just won the Godwin award for this thread.
Anyway, fallacy aside, your comparison doesn't make much sense. Mr adolf wasn't much of a writer, especially compared to an actual genius like Lovecraft. Was he a troubled man with some horrible views? Yep. Still a genius though.

 

[Fenris-77]

@Hussar - We're going to disagree about Lovecraft. I don't see any value in not facing and being honest about the seminal works that inform the genre. You cant take Lovecraft out of the horror and fantasy genres even if you wanted to. I'd prefer to identify the racism for what it is so that identifying when it rears its head, either through a lack of examination, or worse through agreement is possible.