Mana, Shamans, and the Cultural Misappropriation behind Fantasy Terms

[Fenris-77]

As a Shakespeare fan, I totally understand what you mean.

But, to put it in a personal context, I'm in a mixed marriage and my children are of mixed heritage. According to Lovecraft, I'm a race traitor and my children should have been strangled at birth. So, how exactly am I supposed to introduce Call of Cthulhu to my kids? "Oh, hey, honey, here's this really cool game with really cool monsters and horror elements. Let's play, but, you have to promise me that you won't read the source material for this game because then you'll realize that those fish people we met at Innsmouth are actually supposed to be you."

Basically, you're saying that because he had cool ideas, we're supposed to just ignore the context of those ideas. Ignore the fact that people still make considerable amounts of money from that context.

Or, as an alternative, we could let him fade into history like so many other genre authors of the time.

See, I'm not sure that "finding merit in their art" is really worth the price. There are all sorts of brilliant writers out there. There have been more original fantasy works printed since 2000 than in the previous century. I'm pretty sure we can find some pretty cool ideas there. Let the past go. Consign it to the dustbin of history along with the other trash and instead celebrate works by authors who weren't horrible people.

Is that really too much to ask? Is your pretend eldritch horror really that important?

So, at risk of getting banned or whatever, bleep Lovecraft, and bleep his racism. I'm not saying you need to live with that. I'm actually saying no one dors. Lovecraft doesnt control his texts. We do.

Mod Edit: Foul language removed. ~Umbran

 

[Dire Bare]

So, perhaps you should go read Lovecraft Country, by Matt Ruff (and about to be a series on HBO), and also The Ballad of Black Tom, a novella by Victor LaValle. Both recent works that take Lovecraft's mythos and his racism, and tell the stories from the point of view of African American characters to explore those issues.

Such works cannot exist if the original works are forgotten.

In general, rather than erase problematic works, it is better to use them to teach about the problems. If you forget the problematic work, you cannot properly remember the harm it did, either.

There are some really great socially conscious takes on Mythos fiction including both Lovecraft Country and Harlem Unbound that use the framework Lovecraft put in place to explore class and race boundaries in a very fruitful way. Some other latter day Mythos authors have managed to excise most of the racist and colonialist tropes while still providing tense tales of cosmic horror. I think they are worthwhile.

Let's also be crystal clear here. Lovecraft was not an author who happened to be racist. He authored fiction embedded with his own racist fears. Robert E. Howard called him out for doing so.

I am soooooooo looking forward to Lovecraft Country on HBO . . . . .

 

[Maxperson]

But, to put it in a personal context, I'm in a mixed marriage and my children are of mixed heritage. According to Lovecraft, I'm a race traitor and my children should have been strangled at birth. So, how exactly am I supposed to introduce Call of Cthulhu to my kids? "Oh, hey, honey, here's this really cool game with really cool monsters and horror elements. Let's play, but, you have to promise me that you won't read the source material for this game because then you'll realize that those fish people we met at Innsmouth are actually supposed to be you."

Or you could just not run it like that. You could be like, "Oh, hey, honey, here's this really cool game with really cool monsters and horror elements. Let's play, but I want you to understand that the guy who wrote it a long time ago was racist, so I changed all those parts of the game. Those fish people you met at Innsmouth were just fish people from beyond time and space. That's it."

 

[Maxperson]

So, at risk of getting banned or whatever, naughty word Lovecraft, and naughty word his racism. I'm not saying you need to live with that. I'm actually saying no one dors. Lovecraft doesnt control his texts. We do.

This. There's only as much racism in a game of Cthulhu as you put into it. Lovecraft has no ability to reach from beyond the grave and change your game.

 

[Hussar]

I knew that was coming...that's a mighty big strawman there. I said if you don't like it, don't read it. You are the one who chose to completely misinterpret my comment.

I think Umbran said it best earlier; since it is clear that you aren't discussing in good faith, there's no further reason to engage you.

@Umbran made a very well stated point about using it to teach about the problem rather than erase it. I think that is good advice

No, @Raunalyn, that's not what you said. What you said was:

Or (and this is a crazy idea here, I know), you can simply not introduce it. If you feel that strongly about it, then don't read it...don't play it. You have that right.

You know who else has the right to read it and enjoy the game and who often like to play it? A good majority of people who enjoy their eldritch horror.

Kinda missing that second bit there in your response. Not really sure how it's a strawman when you are flat out stating that "people who enjoy their eldritch horror" can enjoy Lovecraft. But, what about the inherent bigotry in the text? I have no problems enjoying the eldritch horror part. That's groovy. I DO have a problem enshrining raging bigots into the hobby and celebrating their work.

"Don't like it, don't read it" means, "Don't play D&D if you don't like it". Sorry, but, I like the hobby. I enjoy playing D&D. Not sure I really want my hobby of choice to be tied to raging bigotry though. Not really comfortable just telling people "don't read it if you don't like it". Not exactly the message I would want to put out there.

 

[Hussar]

I am soooooooo looking forward to Lovecraft Country on HBO . . . . .

If you like that, take a listen to the Drabblecast August episodes where they deconstruct Lovecraft every year and present all sorts of different stories and authors doing just that. It's been going on for a few years now. Really great stuff.

 

[Raunalyn]

Kinda missing that second bit there in your response. Not really sure how it's a strawman when you are flat out stating that "people who enjoy their eldritch horror" can enjoy Lovecraft. But, what about the inherent bigotry in the text? I have no problems enjoying the eldritch horror part. That's groovy. I DO have a problem enshrining raging bigots into the hobby and celebrating their work.

There was no point in addressing that because you attacked a really big strawman at the very first part of your comment. In fact, you claimed I was making an argument that I actually didn't make...the argument you attacked wasn't even close to the comment I made. That is known as a strawman. So why address the rest of your shallow argument when you are going to argue in bad faith?

"Don't like it, don't read it" means, "Don't play D&D if you don't like it". Sorry, but, I like the hobby. I enjoy playing D&D. Not sure I really want my hobby of choice to be tied to raging bigotry though. Not really comfortable just telling people "don't read it if you don't like it". Not exactly the message I would want to put out there.

No, that's your interpretation and putting words in my mouth. I have no control over how you choose to interpret my comment (which, by the way, was yet another strawman argument (my, but you like those)).

Again, we're done here. You have no interest in being intellectually honest, so why bother addressing anything else you say?

 

[Hussar]

/snip

In general, rather than erase problematic works, it is better to use them to teach about the problems. If you forget the problematic work, you cannot properly remember the harm it did, either.

Do you think that a D&D rulebook is the place to teach about the problems?

Do you really think that if we stopped using Lovecraft in games, we would forget about racism?

 

[Hussar]

Again, we're done here. You have no interest in being intellectually honest, so why bother addressing anything else you say?

I completely agree. I agreed with you before as well. I'm just wondering, if you insist that I'm being intellectually dishonest, and attacking people, and not posting in good faith, WHY do you keep directly addressing me? And then why do you keep getting annoyed when I respond to you directly addressing me?

If you don't want to talk to me, here's an easy thought, stop directly addressing me.

 

[Maxperson]

Do you think that a D&D rulebook is the place to teach about the problems?

As a place to teach kids in a fun way? Absolutely.

Do you really think that if we stopped using Lovecraft in games, we would forget about racism?

That wasn't the point.