Mana, Shamans, and the Cultural Misappropriation behind Fantasy Terms

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TheSword

Legend
It seems to me the simpler solution is to simply not include the name in the "recommended reading" list.
By telling people what to read, you’re also telling people what not to read. When the genre has been so wildly influenced by these people not mentioning them is jarring and smacks of putting your head in the sand or worse attempting to sanitize the past.

The list is Gygax’s self identified inspirations with a few added on that have inspired the writers since. I love the HP books but JKRowling not getting on the list doesn’t phase me at all. Its not claiming to be a list of the most popular fantasy books after all. While JK may inspire people to fantasy, what she’s done isn’t new.
 
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Hussar

Legend
I thought the point though was to take the Mythos and strip out the Lovecraft?

It's absolutely not about sanitizing the past. That's one of those bugaboos that get tossed out which really misses the point. The point of these discussions is improving the game and making it more accepting and acceptable to more and more people. Putting a name on the reading list in the PHB that, if you actually read the works, tells about half of your audience that they are worthless pieces of trash that should be exterminated is maybe not the message we want to send?

There are literally thousands of authors we could choose from to put on a list of recommended reading for D&D.

What I'm saying is that in a list that is celebrating the best of the genre, maybe leaving off the name of the racist bigot isn't so much sanitizing the past as much as accepting that the present has just as much relevance. And, frankly, the reason that the genre, and D&D, has been a white boys club for so long is this reluctance to step up and say, "Yup, he had some cool ideas, but, y'know what, so did these other authors. Howzabout we celebrate those other ones and not keep putting people like Lovecraft in prestige positions.
 


Hussar

Legend
Fair enough.

By the same token, we've pretty much come to a consensus on the whole shaman thing, so, this isn't really a big problem. Well, other than a couple of holdouts, it's pretty much given that:

a) shaman traditions should be added to the game separate from druids
b) shaman traditions should be connected to more than just violent, primitive, cannibalistic groups.
c) shaman traditions could be added as a class, or as subclasses for existing classes as well as simply a broader addition of lore to various races.

d) (calling this one out separate because it's my thing and there is disagreement here) future printings of the Monster Manual could remove references to shaman and replace them with druids until such time as A through C are added to the game. (Note, again, there is disagreement here and it's not really a requirement, just a suggestion)

Does anyone disagree with those?
 

Hussar

Legend
I suggest we all stop derailing this thread. I, for one, will stop responding to posts about Lovecraft.

@Hussar consider opening your own thread.

I would like to point out though, that while I was a participant, I hardly was the one who started talking about Lovecraft. In fact I tried to stay out of it and failed my saving throw. Again, it's not a hill I'm going to die on, but, I do believe it sends the wrong message when we tell new gamers, "Hey, this is one of the roots of our game. Don't mind the racism and bigotry that's directed square at you. Ignore all that and enjoy the really cool ideas."
 

TheSword

Legend
Fair enough.

By the same token, we've pretty much come to a consensus on the whole shaman thing, so, this isn't really a big problem. Well, other than a couple of holdouts, it's pretty much given that:

a) shaman traditions should be added to the game separate from druids
b) shaman traditions should be connected to more than just violent, primitive, cannibalistic groups.
c) shaman traditions could be added as a class, or as subclasses for existing classes as well as simply a broader addition of lore to various races.

d) (calling this one out separate because it's my thing and there is disagreement here) future printings of the Monster Manual could remove references to shaman and replace them with druids until such time as A through C are added to the game. (Note, again, there is disagreement here and it's not really a requirement, just a suggestion)

Does anyone disagree with those?
Certainly no issue with the first three. The last we’ve discussed at length.
 
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Though I agree mostly with a) and c) and noticed you no longer consider shaman to be associated with evil, so I can generally agree with your first three points, I am still surprised that lizardmen, stone giants and quaggoth are considered "violent" and "primitive" and I'll try to make the point that b) is already implemented in the monster manual.

The stone giant are described this way: "Stone Giants are reclusive, quiet, and peaceful as long as they are left alone [...] They are private creatures, hiding their lives and art away from the world". Later "Stone giants view the world outside their underground homes as realms of dreams [...] Killing prey or sentient beings is no cause for guilt in the dreaming world beneath the sky." and finally "When trespassers stray too far into the mountain territory of a stone giant clan, those guardians greet them with hurled rocks and showers of splintered stones. Survivors of such encounters spread tales of stone giants violence, never realizing how little those brutes dwelling in the unreal dreaming world resemble their quiet and artistic kin".

So, they carve exquisite art, have advanced stoneworking and masonry techniques that surpasses the dwarfs. There is nothing "primitive" implied in their description, except that they throw rock boulders as a weapon, but catapults do that as well. Basically they didn't need to devise more efficient weapons. They do have an alien view on the surface world, but the only manifestation of violence is against "trespassers" who "stray too far" into their territories. I am not sure the human cultures usually depicted in D&D settings are less violent than that. Think of Eberron: the five main nations had a bloody 100 yaars wars for... succession. They attacked each other because some guy or gal sitting on the local throne wanted to grab his cousins's throne. And these cultures should be lecturing stone giants who just want trespassers to let them alone? I don't think we should hold them to a greater standard of peacefulness than other fantasy cultures. And for those who say that "being in a fantasy isn't an argument", I could add that some real life cultures, among which D&D is sold, fully supports a real life personn who'd shoot at intruders trespassing into his home. Most cultures where D&D is sold would support defensive wars. Interestingly, stone giant are mostly, in setting, victim of prejudice, since the surviving trespassers (ie, bad guys) "spread tales of stone giant violence". Their brutality is only self defence, granted they might show little pity to trespassers, but who would? Apparently, adventuring groups usually don't have a sense of guilt when they kill bandits, so they are not different from stone giants on this account, despite not sharing the alien giant worldview of the surface world.

Basically, shamans are associated with a peaceful, culturally evolved group of giants, who might even be less violent than the default (human/elves/dwarves) and they are prejudiced against because of tales spread by the default (human/elves/dwarves)...

Same with lizardfolk, they are primitive, but not especially violent. It is only when their shamans jobs are usurped by followers of Ssessinek that "these lizard kings and queens dominate lizardfolk tribes, usurping a shaman's authority and inspiring uncharacteristic aggression among their subjects". They are only violent, like stone giant, when their territory is invaded. Agression is "uncharacteristic" to them. They happen to eat anyone who trespass, making "no distinction between humanoids, beasts and monsters". So, they are omnivorous, big deal! Same, when an evil dragon exploit them, they are turned into "raiders and plunderers". So basically, barring outside, evil, influence, they are just wanting to be left alone. They don't seem to be any more violent than the default. Primitive, yes, alien in their worldview, yes, but violent? Not really.

Interestingly, they are also victims of prejudice (the merchant account above the lizard king stat block, for example) and the (previous edition) blurb about their flesh eating habit. It's easy to suppose that the survivor of a trespassing expedition would spread distorted tales of cannibalism, as in "they all want to eat human flesh" and not "they are omnivorous, including mammal humanoid flesh".

Granted, quaggoth are primitive AND violent. I could make the argument that shaman are associated with one violent culture, one peaceful culture and a neutral culture, so they are associated with the whole spectrum violence-wise. But let's continue and explore the source of this violent culture. The fluff tells us that "Quaggoths were never an enlightened species" (ok, they are primitive) "but they were not always the brutal Underdark denizens they are today. In a distant age, quaggoth tribes dwelled upon the surface as nocturnal arboreal hunters, possessing their own language and culture". Really? So they were more advanced, despite not being "enlightened". OK. What happened? "When elves appeared in the mortal realm, they clashed with the quaggoths, eventually driving them to near extinction". WHAT?!? Elves committed a genocide against a sentient , intelligent, species with a language and culture? I hope they are not setting the standard for morality in the game! And they call the not Quaggoth "not enlightened"? "Only by fleeing deep into the Underdark did the quaggoth survive". Not "into the Underdark" but "deep into the Underdark". Apparentely, the genocidal war against the Quaggoth wasn't just a need for the elves to acquire a territory (since they arrived later and wanted to take some place to live) but they chased them even in the outskirts of the underdark to make them extinct. "Weird magic of their new realm transformed them. Turning increasingly brutal and savage, they ate whatever food they could find -- and when they could not find it, they preyed on each other. As cannibalism became part of their culture, their past was abandonned". So basically, they had to turn to sustenance cannibalism and were subsequently even more transformed by the dark elves.

In this third, and final example of refence to a culture with shamans, we do have a primitive and violent culture, but it is made explicitely clear that they are in this sorry state because of the genocide conducted by the elves in the distant past, and had to live in the equivalent of a radiation zone. The prejudice against them was immense, to the point of them being killed, all of them, even the baby quaggoths, despite them not being evil, even in their current state.

So in the current 5e MM, shamans are associated with:

Evil Alignment ? 0 case out of 3 (as was shown previously).
Violent ? 1 case out of 3, with a fluff explaining that their inherent violence is the result of being extremely brutalized in the past by a player race and wild magics, and that they had shamans before, when they were not yet violent.
Primitive? 2 cases out of 3.
Prejudiced against by the default setting races ? 3 cases out of 3.

I agree that they could make more explicit the fact that non primitive cultures (ie, metalworking and living in an environment were complex, far ranging social organization beyond the clan level are needed) also have shamans to avoid misconception.

I do like, however, that stone giants, lizardfolks and quaggoth, all who have shamans, are the victim of prejudice by the cultures the players usually hail from. I feel some can share some of this prejudice "surely, they must be evil, they are CANNIBALS" without considering the origin of this cultural trait (not being a mammal in one case, being forced into it for sustenance reasons in the other) or "they are violent, they throw ROCKS at passer-bys" without considering the self-defense aspect of it and the fact they wouldn't, as PCs, behave differently or "they are primitive, they don't USE METAL TOOLS" without considering that maybe you can have exquisite culture that just happen to not follow the same steps as yours. In exploring the setting, they can realize that the reality is more nuanced, more complex, and that their own approach was judgemental and misguided. It prompts reflection over the player's own values in case he shares some of this prejudice. In setting, if we keep shaman as the religious intermediary of the victims of prejudice, it's easy to include this particular prejudice into the regular PC cultures ("look, they are evil worshippers, they have shaman and not proper clerics") to add another avenue of reflection on whether the PC culture is really in a position to pass judgement over them -- perhaps one more easily acccessible to players, because they will easily realize that shamans aren't inferior to priests, while they may struggle at first with recognizing the other source of prejudice (it's easy not to realize that the violence you're recieving is justified, or to think that cannibalism is inherently evil when our own culture has a cannibalism taboo). If you make shaman more culturally widespread, you remove this particular proof of prejudice by the default culture, but you don't really substract to this trend because there are enough proof of it in the remaining fluff.
 
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a) shaman traditions should be added to the game separate from druids
No they souldn't. D&D druid resmbles a shaman more than it resembles historical druid. Creating a separate shaman class would produce a massive overlap or alternatively avoiding it would mean the shaman lacks elements it should have (like shapeshifing.) It would make more sense to just rename the druid to shaman or just acknowledge that it is an alteranate name for the class that some cultures use. Besides, this game doesn't need more caster classes and generally by demanding that a whole new class would be created just to fix this representation issue over-complicates the matter needlessly. The issue can be fixed far more easily by just altering the flavour text.

b) shaman traditions should be connected to more than just violent, primitive, cannibalistic groups.
Yes.

c) shaman traditions could be added as a class, or as subclasses for existing classes as well as simply a broader addition of lore to various races.
Sure.

d) (calling this one out separate because it's my thing and there is disagreement here) future printings of the Monster Manual could remove references to shaman and replace them with druids until such time as A through C are added to the game. (Note, again, there is disagreement here and it's not really a requirement, just a suggestion)

No. And as you don't need to do A you can just easily add more positive references to shamanism in the lore text with about the same amount of effort it would take to remove the references to shamanism. Granted, the lizardfolk shamans do not seem to practice animism, so they would be more accurately called priests.
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
Pathfinder 1e had done a few things mentioned above.

Shamans aren't tied to primitive, "While some heroes speak to gods or consort with otherworldly muses, shamans commune with the spirits of the world and the energies that exist in every living thing. These divine adventurers draw upon their power to shape the world and expand the influence of their spiritual patrons. Shamans have strong ties to natural spirits. They form powerful bonds with particular spirits, and as their power grows they learn to call upon other spirits in times of need." The second to last sentence makes them sound very similar to druids - but it feels like that sentence could be dropped out; some of the spirit options include Ancestors, Battle, Lore, and Tribe.

For those who want to focus just on shape shifting, PF added the non-spellcasting Shifter class.

As far as Druids just being Nature priests, didn't the druids in 3.5 (and thus PF) already have things that separated them from the nature clerics beyond just the shape changing? In particular the spontaneous casting being "Summon Nature's Ally" instead of healing and not being able to channel positive or negative energy seems fairly big. In any case, I can still see them being rolled into Cleric, but the Terrain and Totem Animal Archetypes in PF at least seemed like they were trying to emphasize something very different than the usual clerics.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Fair enough.

By the same token, we've pretty much come to a consensus on the whole shaman thing, so, this isn't really a big problem. Well, other than a couple of holdouts, it's pretty much given that:

a) shaman traditions should be added to the game separate from druids
b) shaman traditions should be connected to more than just violent, primitive, cannibalistic groups.
c) shaman traditions could be added as a class, or as subclasses for existing classes as well as simply a broader addition of lore to various races.

d) (calling this one out separate because it's my thing and there is disagreement here) future printings of the Monster Manual could remove references to shaman and replace them with druids until such time as A through C are added to the game. (Note, again, there is disagreement here and it's not really a requirement, just a suggestion)

Does anyone disagree with those?
A) I think Shaman should be a separate class, but if it's not, then it fits as a Druid subclass the best, since there's a nature aspect to Shamanism.
B) Is already done and you know that.
C) I can see Shaman as a Druid subclass or Cleric, but I think Druid fits better.
 

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