Mana, Shamans, and the Cultural Misappropriation behind Fantasy Terms

[Hussar]

Barracks room lawyer sophistry at its best. Kudos to you sir.

"It's not about whether we EAT the prisoners, it's whether we kill them." I'll solve that Gordian knot for you, sashimi prisoner. Eat them live. There, now we aren't evil.

The point that I'm making here is that at no point is this a POSITIVE view of a race.

 

[TheSword]

If you were trying to put it within the context of his era, then you would not be downplaying his racism as you are, as he was a conspiracy theorist loon, white supremacist, and Nazi sympathizer even by the standards of his day.

Dude take it down a notch. Nobody is down playing his racism by saying other people were racist too. His erroneous ideas are known and recognized. Other people had similar ideas too to varying degrees.

Let’s stop pretending he was uniquely bad though and therefore worthy of some special castigation beyond that we give to other writers. As if we can grade racism in levels or ranks and decide on cutoffs. It’s all bad. Period.

 

[Aldarc]

Dude take it down a notch. Nobody is down playing his racism by saying other people were racist too. His erroneous ideas are known and recognized. Other people had similar ideas too to varying degrees.

Let’s stop pretending he was uniquely bad though and therefore worthy of some special castigation beyond that we give to other writers. As if we can grade racism in levels or ranks and decide on cutoffs. It’s all bad. Period.

An argument amounting to “at least he didn’t lynch any black people” was casually thrown out there and you’re telling me to take it down a notch?

 

[Sadras]

The point that I'm making here is that at no point is this a POSITIVE view of a race.

Hussar, honestly, do you view the lizard folk as evil or in a negative light?

 

[Sadras]

An argument amounting to “at least he didn’t lynch any black people” was casually thrown out there and you’re telling me to take it down a notch?

That was not the argument.

 

[Hussar]

Hussar, honestly, do you view the lizard folk as evil or in a negative light?

Does it matter? Either way it's bad.

Look, if shaman belonged to groups that were shown in a positive light, then my argument would fall apart. But they're not. All the hand wringing and pedantry in the world doesn't change that. I just get rather annoyed when people lose sight of the argument and start chasing these pointless sidebars that only serve to obfuscate the issue.

I mean, sheesh, we all (or nearly all of us) agree that it's problematic and that the solution isn't terribly difficult. Doesn't that usually signal the end of the discussion? We see this all the time when people try to talk about the issues with things like orcs or Oriental Adventures or whatnot. They latch onto these side points, completely lose sight of the actual issues and then proclaim that no solution is possible

It truly is frustrating.

 

[Maxperson]

Any time we're outside of town, we believe that we are entering the "dream land" and nothing we do is evil. Burn down that orphanage? No problem, they're not real.

Granted, that means that we're insane, but, hey, we're not evil right? And, well, there's nothing negative about depicting an entire race as insane is there?

Slaad anyone? And Derro. Read Derro in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes. They're an insane race of dwarves. Besides, there nothing wrong with depicting an entire imaginary race in a negative light.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

Does it matter? Either way it's bad.

Look, if shaman belonged to groups that were shown in a positive light, then my argument would fall apart. But they're not.

They are portrayed as associated to groups depicted as varied: bad -- but with a huge excuse, they are more victim than culprits -- with the Quaggoths, neutral with the Lizardfolks, positive with the Stone giants, and "all the spectrum" with the mention that druids can act as tribal shaman.

They don't need to be portrayed in a positive light, only not to be portrayed systematically in a bad light. The crux of your solution (make a Shaman class or subclass) still stands and is shared by all. I'd play a lizardfolk shaman any day with the current lore.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Lizardfolk don’t kill and eat humanoids because they have no other source of food. They do so because they like the taste. This goes back to OD&D, is continued in 1e, repudiated as "largely unfounded" in 3e, then brought back again in 5e.

OD&D: "They are fond of human flesh, and they will generally capture as many humans as they can when offered the opportunity in order to take them to their lair and have a tribal feast."

1e: "They are omnivorous, but lizard men are likely to prefer human flesh to other foods."

3e: "Although they are omnivores, lizardfolk prefer meat; popular lore holds that lizardfolk prefer humanoid flesh, but this charge is largely unfounded (though some tribes do eat captives or slain foes)."

5e: "Lizard folk are omnivorous, but they have a taste for humanoid flesh. Prisoners are often taken back to their camps to become the centerpieces of great feasts"

This makes the killing and eating of sentient beings by lizardfolk less moral than the killing and eating of sentient beings by many 5e monsters of evil alignment, such as grell, perytons, ropers, trolls, and yeti.

 

[jasper]

We all know that Lovecraft was a horrible bigot. Boycotting living people for their obnoxious views makes perfect sense. Boycotting people who have been dead for ages for similar reasons makes zero sense.

And Loving the various games which are making money off his works but hating the author is especially silly.