Maps getting crappy now that "tiles" are used to make them?

[Klaus]

The only Dungeon adventure to use the Tiles so far has been the Dungeon Delve tie-in, Return of the Poisoned Shadows (or somesuch).

While I don't want full-fledged Dungeon adventures to use the Tiles (I want Mike Schley to keep his job drawing awesome maps!), I wouldn't mind a 7-page monthly column with new Delve-like side treks, or expending a published Delve.

 

[Klaus]

I'd rather they make the map using tiles. If they aren't going to give a map that you can lay out on the table, you'll have to either draw it yourself or build it out of tiles. I run a game at a store, so I don't exactly have room for a big grid to draw on, and I'd rather use the tiles I've paid for than have to print out a new map for each encounter and pay for that paper and the ink, etc. I don't mind if it uses the tile or not, but when the rooms are 'odd' sized so that you can't really make them out of tiles, it's a bit frustrating. I'm fine with using dice for random things like doors, boxes and such, although it's a bit hard to do things like hindering terrain since characters can still go in those squares. In the case of the dungeon delve it let's you actually use the terrain that appears on the tile, which is more helpful than just using the tiles to approximate the maps.

Ultimately, a drawn map can copy the tiles, but the tiles can't really copy anything that isn't made using the tiles.

Quick thread derail: Fiery Dragon's new BattleBox has 3 pages of heavy cardstock, die-cut dungeon dressing counters that are perfectly suited for enhancing Dungeon Tiles. You can read more about it here: FDP4401 - BattleBox 4E Heroic

[sblock]

[/sblock]

 

[Mouseferatu]

It's difficult enough creating an array of interesting and original encounters to make up an adventure, without the author's creativity being constrained by being forced to pick from preexisting map pieces. I can assure that none of the most interesting encounters in my own Dungeon adventures--and that's based not just on my own opinion, but all the feedback I've gotten--would have been even remotely possible under those circumstances.

I don't mind a semi-regular delve feature that uses them, but forcing other adventures to use them? Best way to ensure that I would neither use nor write any further Dungeon adventures.

 

[Cadfan]

I'd like two changes to their map policies.

First, they need to start making two maps, one to show to the players, and one for the DM. Honestly, the work they do on maps now? Totally wasted 9 times out of 10. Who gets to enjoy it? Not the players, they get to see a three year old's crayon drawing replication of the actual map. The DM can't even show the players his map, because half the time it has secret information on it. Two maps would fix this problem, and wouldn't involve tons of extra work, since the biggest difference would be the omission of the monster's starting locations and the omission of bullet points noting items with secret details. That probably means that the artist's original version would be sufficient in most cases.

Second, when they use dungeon tiles for delve type adventures, they could include printable detail pieces to place onto the tiles.

Ironically, WOTC can't use dungeon tiles as effectively as I can, because its not really sufficient for a published product to drop down a tapered box shape of egyptian tomb pieces, and declare that today, these represent a boat. Adding printable detail items would at least mitigate this a little.

 

[tomBitonti]

I should say ...

Adventures have had a mixed bag of maps: Some have been very simple (such that a tile based map provides an equivalent level of detail, so that turns into a value add), while others have been much more details (so the use of tiles is a value loss).

My own sense is that a conversion of all maps to be tile based would be an overall loss in value. If I were a dungeon subscriber, I would be quite annoyed that the value delivered (for maps) was less than has been provided to date.

Is there any substantial reason (other than a cost one: A professional cartographer would no longer be on staff) to not have both a professionally drawn map and a tile based suggested layout? I would be surprised that there wasn't already software that WotC has that allows them to very quickly do a tile layout. There is no extra cost to publishing the duplicate maps.

 

[darjr]

I think I'm starting to not like Dungeon tiles that much. I've used them, but I keep finding myself not using them more and more.

I very much like using some of them to dress up what I have on the battle matt, and I'm absolutely going to take a look at that battle box. But for actual maps of the rooms and such... My matt is winning.

 

[catsclaw227]

First, they need to start making two maps, one to show to the players, and one for the DM. Honestly, the work they do on maps now? Totally wasted 9 times out of 10. Who gets to enjoy it? Not the players, they get to see a three year old's crayon drawing replication of the actual map. The DM can't even show the players his map, because half the time it has secret information on it. Two maps would fix this problem, and wouldn't involve tons of extra work, since the biggest difference would be the omission of the monster's starting locations and the omission of bullet points noting items with secret details. That probably means that the artist's original version would be sufficient in most cases.

OK, first, I will give my boy, Cadfan, here some XP for this one. Sometimes I disagree with you on a few things, but as a 4e fan, we've got that in common. And it seems we have a DDI subscription in common too. I have worked with Photoshop as a professional for a few years now, and I know it's very possible to do this. Disable some DM layers and resave. Easy-peasy, for someone who is a professional cartographer in this industry. I am not a pro, but even my personal, DM version, amateur stuff is simple to do this.

EDIT: Dammit! I already gave him XP recently, and it says I must "spread it around" before I give him some more. Sorry Russ, it's cool.

Second, when they use dungeon tiles for delve type adventures, they could include printable detail pieces to place onto the tiles.

This too. Can I print a 3x3 overlay for tile to make the terrain? Sure! Provide me the tile, and I will print!

It's difficult enough creating an array of interesting and original encounters to make up an adventure, without the author's creativity being constrained by being forced to pick from preexisting map pieces. I can assure that none of the most interesting encounters in my own Dungeon adventures--and that's based not just on my own opinion, but all the feedback I've gotten--would have been even remotely possible under those circumstances.

I don't mind a semi-regular delve feature that uses them, but forcing other adventures to use them? Best way to ensure that I would neither use nor write any further Dungeon adventures.

OK, so.... as a subscriber to DDI. I would NOT like to see Ari's name disappear from Dungeon adventures or Dragon articles any time too soon.

I think I'm starting to not like Dungeon tiles that much. I've used them, but I keep finding myself not using them more and more.

I very much like using some of them to dress up what I have on the battle matt, and I'm absolutely going to take a look at that battle box. But for actual maps of the rooms and such... My matt is winning.

Interestingly, I have put the 4e battlebox and 4e Heroic in my shopping cart and have been contemplating this purchase for a few days now. I also like the work that Klaus does. I have almost every counter collection he has produced, either as a PDF or print, or in most cases, both.

Yet, for some reason, I have been holding back on these. my players are liking the mini's instead. One of my players has a bunch of DND minis and I have a few (hundred) myself.

I am using Ed's Skeleton Key tiles a LOT, though. I had converted the entire mid section of my Age of Worms campaign to work with his tiles. I have that RPG Object's Tile manager product. It has helped me make a lot of my maps with all the Skeleton Key tiles I own (and that's more than I like to admit. good work Ed.).

I don't want or need dungeon tiles from WOTC. Let the other guys do that stuff. They are better at it, and they also have a community that has huge support. The Cartographer's Guild, Dundjinni forums, FourUglyMonsters.com, there's a lot of them with fan support using Campaign Cartographer and Dundjinni to make maps that kick some serious butt. You can't believe how many awesome maps and objects and map stuff you can find online by amazing artists. The CSUAC is just a dream come true for a mapper. I'm serious, a few good URLs and you can be in third-party mapping nirvana.

EDIT:
WRAL Newsreporter: "So, Mr. Catsclaw227, what are these mystic URLs you say I need to find nirvana?
Catsclaw227: "Fnord."

 

[Beginning of the End]

Of course the ideal for me would be for the maops to be available to print out, separated into sheets for 8 1/2" x 11" paper. Allowing them more options, less prep time for me, and better looking table maps that what I can draw.

I agree. There's actually a lot of art assets in adventure modules that are just wasted. For example, why is there ever a single illustration in a module that I can't hold up to my players and say, "This is what you see."?

And, for me, that includes the cover.

It seems like a no-brainer to me.

Similarly, if you're creating digital maps and offering them through a digital subscription service... why wouldn't you create a version of that map at tabletop scale? This should just be common sense. Not offering such an obvious (and trivial) feature just seems perverse to me.

 

[catsclaw227]

I agree. There's actually a lot of art assets in adventure modules that are just wasted. For example, why is there ever a single illustration in a module that I can't hold up to my players and say, "This is what you see."?

And, for me, that includes the cover.

It seems like a no-brainer to me.

The DDI Dungeon has a maps and an image gallery that you can download (as a zipped file if you are a DDI subscriber) and print out if you like.

 

[Wik]

I'm with you on this, too, Cadfan. Here's my take on the issue:

First, I'm talking in hypotheticals, because the tiles are really only used in Delves anyway. BUT...

The nice thing about more encounters using Dungeon tiles is that you can make more visually interesting encounter areas, as opposed to your usual battlemat art that appears. If I place down a couple dungeon tiles (I'd imagine it takes about the same amount of time as it would take to draw up the map, but I could be wrong here), our battle area is going to be MUCH better looking than if I used a couple of markers to reproduce things.

I'd much rather see something like Cadfan suggested, with maps that I can print off for actual game use, but the use of Tiles is a happy medium.

Also, they are awesome in a delve format. Fully appreciate them, there.