Marking & Fighters

[parra]

So as we know when a fighter uses his Combat Challenge he marks a target and if the target shifts or uses an attack that doesnt also include the fighter, then the fighter gets a basica attack.

What im curious about is what actually constitutes an attack?
Seems like a simple (and obvious) answer at first, but let me explain further.

My gaming group (of which i an GM) recently had an encounter with a Young Green Dragon.
One if the Dragons abilites was a Tail Sweep attack that basically allowed the dragon to attack and target that didnt move during its turn.
Now there was a fighter attacking the Dragon and had him marked, thus focusing the dragons main attention onto him. As the fight progressed the PC's became less mobile and the Tail Sweep began to be used. Now this is where the problem arose.
The Fighter argued that the Dragon using its Tail Sweep to attack any target other than himself allowed his Combat Challenge to come into effect and allow him a Basic Melee attack and that this should also apply to any other opertunity attacks that anything he had marked did (not just the dragon, but any critter in the future). I argued that the Tail Sweep and indeed other Opertunity Attacks were not covered by this, though I still applied the -2 penalty for attacking a target other than the Fighter.
In the intrest of fairness I said I would look into the matter further before the next session.

So what to people think?
Should a Fighter, using Combat Challenge and Marking an opponent be allowed to make a melee basic attack any time that opponent makes an Opertunity Attack, or uses a reactionary ability against any target other than the Fighter?


Also on a related topic, i notice the several monsters (i.e. kobolds) have the ability to 'Mark' there target but then have no abilities or bonuses listed for use against a marked target, nor does it say some thing like "functions like class X's ability". Any thoughts?

 

[DracoSuave]

Answering your last question first: Marking is a condition. However, Defenders each have an ability or power that allows them to mark+do something else, or triggers when a marked creature does soething. So, there's marking (which said monster does, or certain paladin powers) and then there's -Marking- (which fighters' Combat Challenge does, or Divine Challenge, or Aegis of _____ for Swordmages).

If such a creature marks, if there are no other effects listed, no other effects happen, except the marked target's penalty to attack when not targetting the marker.

Now for the first question.

First: Tail Sweep is an immediate reaction, not an opportunity attack or other opportunity action. You know this, because it says 'immediate' and does not say 'opportunity.' This is an important distinction, because a being only gets one immediate action between their turns, but can have multiple opportunity actions (one action per other being's turn.)

The Fighter's Combat Challenge does not care -when- an attack by the marked creature happens. It only asks:

1) Is it the Fighter's Turn? If yes, no Combat Challenge attack can be made because immediate actions are never taken on your turn.
2) Have I used an immediate action already? If yes, no CC attack can be made because you only get one per round.
3) Is the enemy attacking but not including you as a target? If yes, CC triggers.

If an opponent uses an immediate action or opportunity attack to hit your buddy, and it's not your turn, you can get that whack in against the monster, unless you've already done so this round. You only get one tho.

 

[Majushi]

I think you should keep in mind that the Fighter's Combat Challenge is only activated once per turn.

Which means that if the Fighter already used it's CC against the Dragon in the dragon's turn, then the Fighter will no longer get the CC for that round.

However, if the fighter has not used the CC this turn then he can when the Dragon Opp Attacks.

As for the Kobold Marks. Their mark imposes a -2 to hit other creatures. That's it. No CC, because unless they are a Fighter NPC templated creature they don't have that Class Feature. Still. -2 to hit can be annoying, and often it's worth killing your marker before moving on to squishier targets.

Edit; Ninjaed... For that matter. Draco's Three step rules much more eloquently convey what I was trying to say.

 

[parra]

If such a creature marks, if there are no other effects listed, no other effects happen, except the marked target's penalty to attack when not targetting the marker.

Yea thats pretty much the conclusion I was reaching too, it just seemed kinda pointless to say a critter marks the target, when marking causes nothing to actually change. Made me wonder why they even had it there in the first place or that I was maybe missing something.

The Fighter's Combat Challenge does not care -when- an attack by the marked creature happens. It only asks:

1) Is it the Fighter's Turn? If yes, no Combat Challenge attack can be made because immediate actions are never taken on your turn.
2) Have I used an immediate action already? If yes, no CC attack can be made because you only get one per round.
3) Is the enemy attacking but not including you as a target? If yes, CC triggers.

If an opponent uses an immediate action or opportunity attack to hit your buddy, and it's not your turn, you can get that whack in against the monster, unless you've already done so this round. You only get one tho.

This clarifies it a fair bit. Thanks

 

[Bagpuss]

Yea thats pretty much the conclusion I was reaching too, it just seemed kinda pointless to say a critter marks the target, when marking causes nothing to actually change.

It gives them a -2 penalty to attacks that don't include the creature that gave the mark. This means if you want to hit the annoying Kobold sorcerer, when the kobold soldier is marking you it is harder. That's why it is there.

 

[parra]

It gives them a -2 penalty to attacks that don't include the creature that gave the mark. This means if you want to hit the annoying Kobold sorcerer, when the kobold soldier is marking you it is harder. That's why it is there.

can you cite where that is explained? or was it in one of the erata?

As looking at the discription of a Monster with it (in this case the Kobold Dragonshield) its simply says "and the target is marked until the end of the kobold dragonshields next turn" and makes no mention of any penalty. Nor is there mention in the glossary of abilities at the end of the MM.

I have no problems with it causing the -2 penalty, I would just like to see where it says it.

 

[MrBeens]

can you cite where that is explained? or was it in one of the erata?

As looking at the discription of a Monster with it (in this case the Kobold Dragonshield) its simply says "and the target is marked until the end of the kobold dragonshields next turn" and makes no mention of any penalty. Nor is there mention in the glossary of abilities at the end of the MM.

I have no problems with it causing the -2 penalty, I would just like to see where it says it.

See Conditions - p277 PHB.

 

[parra]

See Conditions - p277 PHB.

so simple and yet I was so blind. Thanks for that

 

[DracoSuave]

Also, don't forget. Paladins and Swordmages don't have abilities that trigger off of marked creatures like a fighter does, so if they have a power that says something like 'Hit: Do blah damage and the target is marked' you don't get the benefit of the Aegis or Divine Challenge--those are self-complete powers which have the effect of 'Mark, and then do something if they attack someone as well.'

 

[Nail]

As looking at the discription of a Monster with it (in this case the Kobold Dragonshield) its simply says "and the target is marked until the end of the kobold dragonshields next turn" and makes no mention of any penalty. Nor is there mention in the glossary of abilities at the end of the MM.

It's an easy thing to overlook. "Marking" doesn't seem like a condition that you look up.