Martial artist updated for 3.5E

[hong]

Hong,

I prefer customizable classes to stiff prestige classes corsets (CORPS lovers unite!). I consider your Martial Artists superior because of its flexibility... so, using a prestige class to portray just one style is not a concept I'd cherish.

That's not exactly what I meant when I said "use a prestige class".

Besides, 20 levels is not going to suffice if you want to create Bruce Lee clone.

Bruce Lee, the real person, was 5th or 6th level at most. While you may think that's pissy, you and I by comparison are 1st level schmucks, and would die in less than a round against him.

Once you get past about 5th level, you're in the realms of fantasy. Once you get to 10th level or so, you're in the realm of supers games. A 20th level D&D character can shoot 6 aimed arrows in 6 seconds, or plow through an army of hundreds of trained soldiers, or kill things with a touch, or raise them from the dead. Such characters are, almost by definition, larger than life. Thinking that an actual person should somehow be 20th level just because they were badass (or even REALLY badass) indicates a misunderstanding of the tropes portrayed in D&D.

By creating Graceful Crane Stance Mastery feat and listing a list of prerequisites ("any three of the following list") you'd reproduce the mechanic while allowing the player to choose the way he or she is going to use to achieve the feat.

Why don't you look at the list of MA feats at the URL above, and tell me if those are broken.

PS. One does not have to be of a ninja class in order to be called one.

Correct. One can also just take rogue levels. Rogues == teh ninjae.

 

[Arcane Runes Press]

Mongoose Beyond Monks would be a good example of similar solution (there are some problems with d20 mechanics which made me skip the book).

Chainmail Bikini Games produced Beyond Monks, not Mongoose Publishing.


And Hong;

I'm playtesting your class' mechanics as we speak, IYKWIMAITYD

And for those WDKWIM

don't ask Hong, HKWIMBHWTYWIMIYKWIMAITYD


Patrick Y.

 

[hong]

Hey there Patrick! Any chance of seeing a 3.5 Quint Monk? I mean, I'm just playing around with my users for the fun of it, but you get to do it for money!

 

[ruemere]

That's not exactly what I meant when I said "use a prestige class".

Ah, but I have had considered prestige class alternatives and found them wanting.

Bruce Lee, the real person, was 5th or 6th level at most. While you may think that's pissy, you and I by comparison are 1st level schmucks, and would die in less than a round against him.

Clarification: I'm talking about number of skills known, not about power level. The guy knew enough different styles to put 30th level epic M.A. to shame.

Thinking that an actual person should somehow be 20th level just because they were badass (or even REALLY badass) indicates a misunderstanding of the tropes portrayed in D&D.

D20 and real life? You should give me more credit

Why don't you look at the list of MA feats at the URL above, and tell me if those are broken.

*sigh* Ok, you asked for this.

Called Shot: Ranged Full Round Action Power Attack with 3 feats of prerequisites and 30 feet range limit? No use for a sniper, not useful for a knife thrower (one knife throw per round without any move action?).
Verdict: Too inefficient. Delete it.

Improved Aimed Shot: Nice, though mechanics are a bit too complex for my taste. It may be a good idea to replace penalties associated with simple "You count as prone until your next turn" or "You count as prone until the end of this round". 1/5 of BAB? Hmm. Insight boni usually are related to Wis bonus.
Verdict: Interesting. Should be simplified in order to make it easier to remember. Perhaps replacing 1/5 BAB with Wis bonus would suffice.

Improved All-Out Attack: See above. Good for all those Monks, better still for Power Attack (3.5) users.
Verdict: May be a little unbalanced if coupled with PA. A little.

Improved Dodge: Good.
Verdict: No problems here.

Negate Critical: Very useful for fighters. Should use Fortitude save instead of BAB - that's what the saves are for.
Verdict: A bit messy (new mechanic) but interesting.

Improved Rapid Strike: Breaks mechanics of Standard action a bit (just like a Rapid Shot). Makes Full attack action less interesting. Makes Charge action and Power Attack even less interesting.
Verdict: Passable, though myself I would not accept it(I'm think that melee damage is already very significant portion of damage total).
Error: There is an error in Rapid Strike mention:
In addition to the extra attack you gain with a full attack action from Rapid Strike, you also gain an extra attack with a standard attack action in melee.

Final word: I do not like virtual feats (i.e. this feat function only if...). The character should either know a feat or there should be a different feat for the ability altogether. Maybe that's a programmer habit of mine, but I dislike such rule manoeuvring. Besides, the fewer exceptions the neater the system.



Regards,
Ruemere

PS. Did I mention ?

 

[hong]

Clarification: I'm talking about number of skills known, not about power level. The guy knew enough different styles to put 30th level epic M.A. to shame.

The level of abstraction of D&D combat doesn't facilitate the representation of individual martial arts styles. You have no idea how many styles a 30th level epic MA might know, because the game doesn't explicitly say one way or another. It could be just one, or it could be hundreds. It's all rolled up into BAB, hit points, and feats.

D20 and real life? You should give me more credit

That would have worked a lot better if you hadn't started assigning D&D levels to actual people.

*sigh* Ok, you asked for this.

You're new here, aren't you?

Called Shot: Ranged Full Round Action Power Attack with 3 feats of prerequisites and 30 feet range limit? No use for a sniper, not useful for a knife thrower (one knife throw per round without any move action?).
Verdict: Too inefficient. Delete it.

I think you underestimate how broken ranged power attack can be (although they've fixed this somewhat in 3.5E).

Improved Aimed Shot: Nice, though mechanics are a bit too complex for my taste. It may be a good idea to replace penalties associated with simple "You count as prone until your next turn" or "You count as prone until the end of this round".

So ranged attacks get a penalty to hit you, if you make an aimed shot? Interesting.

Improved All-Out Attack: See above. Good for all those Monks, better still for Power Attack (3.5) users.
Verdict: May be a little unbalanced if coupled with PA. A little.

Huh?

Improved Rapid Strike: Breaks mechanics of Standard action a bit (just like a Rapid Shot). Makes Full attack action less interesting. Makes Charge action and Power Attack even less interesting.

You have a very interesting way of using the phrase "less interesting".

Verdict: Passable, though myself I would not accept it(I'm think that melee damage is already very significant portion of damage total).
Error: There is an error in Rapid Strike mention:
In addition to the extra attack you gain with a full attack action from Rapid Strike, you also gain an extra attack with a standard attack action in melee.

Um, so where's the error?

Final word: I do not like virtual feats (i.e. this feat function only if...). The character should either know a feat or there should be a different feat for the ability altogether. Maybe that's a programmer habit of mine, but I dislike such rule manoeuvring. Besides, the fewer exceptions the neater the system.

There's nothing wrong with virtual feats. In this case, all it represents is the fact that a MA is trained in a particular style of fighting that doesn't work well with armour. So if you wear armour, expect not to fight so well.

 

[Cyronax]

Hong I'm still not sure about how to use your martial artist class while at the same time keeping the core monk. I'm tempted to cut the monk in a way, since its way too strict and boring,

Anyway, finished reading most your stuff, and I just wanted to compliment you on your ENTIRE website.

I especially love your Mountain Spirit School. It really evokes a similar school in my world known as the "Ghost School", which is the main place witch hunter PrCs hang out, and I think I'll have this be *the* school of choice.

All of your material is usable with nearly no modification at all. That's about the best compliment I can give a d20 designer, so take it as a high one.

Thanks,
C.I.D.

 

[hong]

Hong I'm still not sure about how to use your martial artist class while at the same time keeping the core monk. I'm tempted to cut the monk in a way, since its way too strict and boring,

That's pretty much what I would do. But then I may be a bit biased.

Anyway, finished reading most your stuff, and I just wanted to compliment you on your ENTIRE website.

I especially love your Mountain Spirit School. It really evokes a similar school in my world known as the "Ghost School", which is the main place witch hunter PrCs hang out, and I think I'll have this be *the* school of choice.

All of your material is usable with nearly no modification at all. That's about the best compliment I can give a d20 designer, so take it as a high one.

Aw, shucks. That makes me go all gooey inside.

 

[Arcane Runes Press]

Hey there Patrick! Any chance of seeing a 3.5 Quint Monk? I mean, I'm just playing around with my users for the fun of it, but you get to do it for money!

I dunno.

It's up to the Mongoose guys to make that decision. I think the book has sold out, so I suppose it's a possibility.

Heck, if they do decide to do it, they might just do it themselves.


But yeah, I'd do it. An update job like that would be just the thing to help me restock my dwindling cache of cocaine and supermodels.


Patrick Y.

 

[totoro]

I like the class, but it is better than a fighter at every level. At first level, you get an ability that is better than a feat. You also get 2 fewer hit points (3 hit points = 1 feat) in exchange for 2 better reflex save (1 feat). Skills are better and you get more. Attack is the same. And it just gets worse from there, since the martial artist gets as many feats as a fighter from then on to 10th level, plus other cool abilities. Moreover, the martial artist bonus feats are more varied than the fighter's. (More than most, I consider armor to be a minor advantage, since not having armor makes you more stealthy and more mobile.)

I would have to scale back the abilities of this class before introducing it into my campaign. It could work well as a prestige class of the functional, rather than world-based, variety.

 

[Voadam]

I like the class, but it is better than a fighter at every level. At first level, you get an ability that is better than a feat. You also get 2 fewer hit points (3 hit points = 1 feat) in exchange for 2 better reflex save (1 feat). Skills are better and you get more. Attack is the same. And it just gets worse from there, since the martial artist gets as many feats as a fighter from then on to 10th level, plus other cool abilities. Moreover, the martial artist bonus feats are more varied than the fighter's. (More than most, I consider armor to be a minor advantage, since not having armor makes you more stealthy and more mobile.)

I would have to scale back the abilities of this class before introducing it into my campaign. It could work well as a prestige class of the functional, rather than world-based, variety.

A 1st level MA will have a poorer AC than a fighter, one less feat, and 2 less hit points.

At higher levels the fighter still outpaces the MA on feats, hit points and AC.

The MA makes a slightly better unarmored and/or unarmed warrior than a fighter does, but I think that is the point of the class.