D&D 5E Martial Characters vs Real World Athletes

[billd91]

You probably want to back away from calling people liars. Quickly. He may be misinformed, or wrong - but a lie implies an purposeful desire to mislead. If you know his intentions that well over the internet... go lend yourself out intelligence agencies, or become a superhero, or something, as you are probably telepathic.

Not a chance, Umbran. He's had ample opportunity to be educated on that topic on these boards yet decided to throw that bomb.

 

[Umbran]

Not a chance, Umbran. He's had ample opportunity to be educated on that topic on these boards yet decided to throw that bomb.

Bill, I know I didn't use "mod voice" before, but after someone suggests that calling folks liars is inappropriate, continuing to make it personal in discussion with me is probably not your best move.

You have now made it clear that you have an issue not just with the ideas, but with the poster themselves. Time to walk away.

 

[Rygar]

Frankly, no its not. While they may SAY thats what they are after, it ALWAYS boils back down to "Fighters cant have nice things."

I have yet to see one of those people who make this claim explain the difference, in their view, between a 1st lvl martial characters abilities and a 20th lvl martial characters abilities. In all cases, its fine that the 1st level character rivals olympic athletes, but heaven forbid that they ever get any better. There can never be something a 20th lvl martial can do that a 1st lvl can't.

It is interesting to me, if I post that I have problems with Inspirational Healing I am told that people are not becoming any more healthy, the HP's they gain as they level are just "Fatigue points" or "Skill". But then we're required to accept that the Fighter gains inconceivable abilities as he levels? So he doesn't become any more healthy from level 1 to 20 and it is ok because Inspirational Healing (Or DOAM), but he must gain magical abilities in that same range?

It has also been my experience that "Fighters cant have nice things." has one of two meanings...

1. Fighters should have equivalent abilities to magic users.
2. Fighters should have everything codified so that the DM can't say "No".

The first one runs into the problem of double standards with HP's. The second one should not be handled because the game allows arbitrary input and the rules cannot cover infinite possibilities, so the DM's ability to say "No" is requisite.

So if we're going to discuss "Fighters cant have nice things." I think we first need to come to a consensus on the issue of HP's, because if we're going to assert that Inspirational Healing such as Second Wind makes sense because people aren't becoming more healthy, then we need to drop the magical fighter as we excluded it as a possibility when we asserted that they have the same physical constraints as a normal human.

 

[Aloïsius]

What about D&D fighters vs real world wariors ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Terrail,_seigneur_de_Bayard#1503_-_Battle_of_Garigliano
Bayard was able to defend a bridge single handedly against 200 spanyards. According to D&D rules, even if he was level 20 and his enemies were level 1, how many critical hit should he has suffered ?

 

[Chocolategravy]

And this was the whole point of the thread. Weird (and depressing) that this wasn't most people's takeaway.

So you think being able to dodge or deflect a storm giant's attacks enough to live 18 seconds somehow is equivalent to being able to lift a ton? That really makes no sense at all. The actual takeaway is that 5E models reality worse than previous editions.

 

[Ashkelon]

So you think being able to dodge or deflect a storm giant's attacks enough to live 18 seconds somehow is equivalent to being able to lift a ton? That really makes no sense at all. The actual takeaway is that 5E models reality worse than previous editions.

To some, being "hit" by an attack means actual physical contact with the body was made. If a normal human was hit by the weapon of a creature the size of a storm giant, even a minor blow would shatter bones. So unless the PC is being "missed" every time they are hit, then no it really doesn't make sense for the high level fighter to be a mundane human.

Furthermore, such a warrior would be largely incapable of harming a huge sized creature. The fact that we suspend disbelief for a normal human to stand toe to toe with a 20 ft tall giant many times tier strength, but as soon as that human can outperform real world athletes people call BS is plain silly.

Levels 1-4 are the mundane tier. PCs should be as capable as professional athletes here.
Levels 5-10 are the heroic tier. PCs should be as capable as heroes like Aragorn, Conan, Lancelot, etc here.
Levels 11-16 the mythic tier. PCs should be capable as Perseus, Achilles, Beowulf, etc.
levels 17-20 are the godlike tier. PCs should be as capable as Herakles, Gilgamesh, Cucuchlain, etc.

 

[Sadras]

Levels 1-4 are the mundane tier. PCs should be as capable as professional athletes here.
Levels 5-10 are the heroic tier. PCs should be as capable as heroes like Aragorn, Conan, Lancelot, etc here.
Levels 11-16 the mythic tier. PCs should be capable as Perseus, Achilles, Beowulf, etc.
levels 17-20 are the godlike tier. PCs should be as capable as Herakles, Gilgamesh, Cucuchlain, etc.

Therein lies a great design for the game which 5e I feel may have lost the opportunity, by having E6-style like rules for those very subsets/tiers. The DMG could still prove me wrong of course and I'm hoping it does.

 

[N'raac]

That's a bit disingenuous, don't you think?

No, not really. What I find disingenuous is the claim that suspension of disbelief sufficient to accept fire breathing dragons, magical power that revises reality to the user's specifications, mythical Gods walking the earth, the warrior who can stand toe to toe with Giants, Hydrae and other mythical beasts, and the myriad of other aspects of a fantasy role playing game that we all take for granted can so easily be shattered if a character can equal or exceed the feats of real-world athletes.

I quite concur with what I view as Pemerton's sentiment - that it is unrealistic to apply a standard of realism to one tiny aspect of the game, while accepting "fantasy/action movie" realism on all other elements.

 

[Chocolategravy]

To some, being "hit" by an attack means actual physical contact with the body was made. If a normal human was hit by the weapon of a creature the size of a storm giant, even a minor blow would shatter bones.

No, a minor blow wouldn't shatter bones. People can be hit by a bus and not break a bone. There are an endless number of ways that a giant can hit someone and not incapacitate them in 1 hit.

So unless the PC is being "missed" every time they are hit, then no it really doesn't make sense for the high level fighter to be a mundane human.

I think you just have a very skewed idea of what a mundane human can survive. It can include dozens of bullets, falling great distances and many grazes from near dodges of a giant's club.

In the case of a giant hitting for 28 average per hit, it takes an IMMENSELY skilled fighter in armor just to live 18 seconds. Even their skill and luck won't let them keep dodging much beyond that. That is hardly beyond the realm of plausible.

Furthermore, such a warrior would be largely incapable of harming a huge sized creature. The fact that we suspend disbelief for a normal human to stand toe to toe with a 20 ft tall giant many times tier strength, but as soon as that human can outperform real world athletes people call BS is plain silly.

Again I think you have a very skewed idea of what a mundane person is capable of. Giants are huge, 15 feet tall, the same size category as an elephant. Humans can and do kill elephants with melee weapons. It doesn't take wuxia crap to do this.

 

[Chocolategravy]

I quite concur with what I view as Pemerton's sentiment - that it is unrealistic to apply a standard of realism to one tiny aspect of the game, while accepting "fantasy/action movie" realism on all other elements.

The game says one thing isn't magic and one thing is. The standard of realism we're applying is the standard the game claims to hold to. Blame the game. If they don't want people to apply realistic expectations to something, then the game shouldn't claim those things are realistic.