Martial Controler

[JackFrostAgain]

Not a problem. I intend to use the class, when it's finished!



If you mean "make a melee attack and then a close burst as a secondary attack," I agree. The "shout" could be any number of taunts or the like and could, in most cases be close burst 3-5.



This could help alleviate some of the survivability issues, but only against a single foe per round, as written (since you can only use one immediate action per round). Perhaps the AC or Reflex bonus could apply until the start of the swashbuckler's next turn, but the effect applies as a free action at the time the power is used.


...I would think it would be better to have the stances provide survivability for the controller, instead of making the opponent take more damage.



This is a controller effect, but, again does nothing to help the swashbuckler survive being in melee. In fact, this might encourage other foes to stick with him.

That's all I've got, for now.

As my experience playing D&D 4th can tell, a character takes no more than 2 or 3 hits in a single round. It might change if you got a lot of minions in the battlegrid, but combats that do not involve minions uses to present 4 ~ 6 enemies, wich will be well represented by artillary, brutes, skirmishes and etc (some of then elites). If you got a good tank in your team, then you don't need to worry about many of then, so I'll take that even fighting in melee the swashbuckler wont take as many hits as you think. Since it gonna have a high AC and Reflexes some of then will be missing, and for thoose that actually hits he will have the immediate interrupt, that will let he either slide the foe or shift himself. I might be wrong, but I think this is survivability enough. But it lacks playtest tough, something that I'm gonna try soon (in a 12 lvl champaign).

If it actually work, I guess I can take the stances provided by the daily powers to control instead of defend himself.

Again, thank you for the feedback. The next part of my campaign will involve planar pirates, so that's why I'm working in this class. And also I think the game lacks a martial controller.


The real weakness of the class, though, is that it actually lacks fortitude defense (and also Will defense for Clever Fencers). This is not a survivability issue, IMHO, because every class presents some weakness. I focused in AC and Reflex because this is the defenses that are usually the targets in melee combat.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=6673748]JackFrostAgain[/MENTION]

The swashbuckler is the ultimate mobility character, more than the thief even. I would heavily emphasize that for a couple reasons:

First, it provides a way to escape being surrounded or the target of focused fire. You hint at this with your parry powers, but I would go further. For example, each consecutive hit against the swashbuckler might improve your defenses by +2. You could even grant an at-will interrupt shift, with the potential to avoid one attack each round.

Second, it enables the swashbuckler to move long distances quickly - critical for a melée controller to keep up with the artilley power of other controllers. I like the idea of a swashbuckler chaining together moves by meeting special triggers/conditions. This would also give them a different feel from a rogue.

Third, many controller powers create or interact with terrain - something which dovetails with the swashbuckler's mobility perfectly. For example, whenever the swashbuckler leaves a square with a movement power, they can leave behind either hindering terrain or attractive terrain. This would include the classic cutting a tensioned rope which shoots the swashbuckler into the rafters while dropping barrels down on to his enemies.

 

[JackFrostAgain]

The swashbuckler is the ultimate mobility character, more than the thief even. I would heavily emphasize that for a couple reasons:

First, it provides a way to escape being surrounded or the target of focused fire. You hint at this with your parry powers, but I would go further. For example, each consecutive hit against the swashbuckler might improve your defenses by +2. You could even grant an at-will interrupt shift, with the potential to avoid one attack each round.

Second, it enables the swashbuckler to move long distances quickly - critical for a melée controller to keep up with the artilley power of other controllers. I like the idea of a swashbuckler chaining together moves by meeting special triggers/conditions. This would also give them a different feel from a rogue.

Third, many controller powers create or interact with terrain - something which dovetails with the swashbuckler's mobility perfectly. For example, whenever the swashbuckler leaves a square with a movement power, they can leave behind either hindering terrain or attractive terrain. This would include the classic cutting a tensioned rope which shoots the swashbuckler into the rafters while dropping barrels down on to his enemies.

Thank you for the feedback, dude! Did you downloaded the pdf I created? It adds the flavor texts for almost all powers.

About everything you said, I totally agree with you, but keep in mind that this kind of stuff should be covered by powers, don't you think? I still have like 24 levels to cover, plus paragon paths and feats and all sort of stuff. But I'll try some of your ideas for some powers.

For example, each consecutive hit against the swashbuckler might improve your defenses by +2. You could even grant an at-will interrupt shift, with the potential to avoid one attack each round.

I guess the Class Feature powers already cover what you're asking.
I'll create some powers, though, that add more move abilities and surviveability to the swashbuckler. A 9th level daily power that will provide a stance that makes something like you said, for instance:

Buccaneer's Savvy - 9th level daily power - martial, weapon, stance
Close Burst 1. Target Each enemy in burst you can see.
Attack Dex vs AC
Hit 2[W] + Dex and you immobilize the target until the end of your next turn.
Effect You enter the Buccaneer's Stance. While this stance is active, you add a +1 bonus to AC for every enemy adjacent to you.

This class is focused on stances, like the barbarian with rages and the warden with the polymorphs.

 

[JackFrostAgain]

The swashbuckler is the ultimate mobility character, more than the thief even.

So far, for instance, I gave the swashbuckler at least one power per level that let him moves, until the 3rd level. A lot of utility powers will work this way.

At-will: both Fast Feint and Fencing Blow

1th encounter: Acrobatic Charge

1th daily: Offensive Maneuvers

2nd utility: Sea Legs, Shore Leave

 

[JackFrostAgain]

Second, it enables the swashbuckler to move long distances quickly - critical for a melée controller to keep up with the artilley power of other controllers. I like the idea of a swashbuckler chaining together moves by meeting special triggers/conditions. This would also give them a different feel from a rogue.

It feels like a great idea, but I can see how can I bring it to the game mechanics. Can you help? Maybe a power as a example, or anything else.

 

[JackFrostAgain]

Third, many controller powers create or interact with terrain - something which dovetails with the swashbuckler's mobility perfectly. For example, whenever the swashbuckler leaves a square with a movement power, they can leave behind either hindering terrain or attractive terrain. This would include the classic cutting a tensioned rope which shoots the swashbuckler into the rafters while dropping barrels down on to his enemies.

The[FONT=Arial Black, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] Environment Awareness class feature was created to feels something like this, but I cound't realize how to do it work within the game mechanics. So, you can use that Int or Cha bonus provided to ask your DM if you can do things like you're saying, since it was exactly what I had in mind.
[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[Rune]

The swashbuckler is the ultimate mobility character, more than the thief even. I would heavily emphasize that for a couple reasons:

First, it provides a way to escape being surrounded or the target of focused fire. You hint at this with your parry powers, but I would go further. For example, each consecutive hit against the swashbuckler might improve your defenses by +2. You could even grant an at-will interrupt shift, with the potential to avoid one attack each round.

Second, it enables the swashbuckler to move long distances quickly - critical for a melée controller to keep up with the artilley power of other controllers. I like the idea of a swashbuckler chaining together moves by meeting special triggers/conditions. This would also give them a different feel from a rogue.

Third, many controller powers create or interact with terrain - something which dovetails with the swashbuckler's mobility perfectly. For example, whenever the swashbuckler leaves a square with a movement power, they can leave behind either hindering terrain or attractive terrain. This would include the classic cutting a tensioned rope which shoots the swashbuckler into the rafters while dropping barrels down on to his enemies.

I agree with all of this! (The at-will interrupt would have to be a free action, instead of an immediate action, obviously.) Consider these two class features (as these are the meat of the class, they should not replace the at-will or encounter attacks.

Grace of the Swashbuckler [Keyword: Martial, At-Will, Free Action, Trigger: when you deal damage with an At-Will Attack Power on your turn.]
Effect: You gain a +2 bonus to your AC and Reflex until the start of your next turn. In addition, you may make an Acrobatics check vs. the Reflex of the target of your attack. If you are successful, you may shift a number of squares equal to your Dexterity modifier. If you choose, you may use an Athletics check, rather than an Acrobatics. If you do so, you may ignore difficult terrain during this shift.

Use the Terrain[Keyword: Martial, Encounter, Free Action, Trigger: when you leave a square with a movement that includes an Athletics or Acrobatics check]
Effect: The square you left and all adjacent squares become difficult terrain until the end of the encounter. If any of the squares were already difficult terrain, they instead become blocking terrain until the end of the encounter.​

This class is focused on stances, like the barbarian with rages and the warden with the polymorphs.

...So far, for instance, I gave the swashbuckler at least one power per level that let him moves, until the 3rd level. A lot of utility powers will work this way.

You might consider doing something similar to the Monk's Full Techniques to ensure that every encounter or daily has mobility options (but with the class features I wrote above, I would definitely not do it for At-Wills), without overpowering them (although you would probably want a slightly different mechanic, to differentiate them).

 

[Quickleaf]

Thank you for the feedback, dude! Did you downloaded the pdf I created? It adds the flavor texts for almost all powers.

ah I didn't see that...so your first language is portugesa? Have you considered using the essentials martial classes as your model instead if the PHB classes?

About everything you said, I totally agree with you, but keep in mind that this kind of stuff should be covered by powers, don't you think?

Actually I think that the flavor, unique mechanics, and role of a class should be clear by just their features and at-wills alone. Mike Mearls came out and said that in a Dragon article, and I thought t was solid advice.

I guess the Class Feature powers already cover what you're asking.

I'm suggesting a big power. What you have is "he misses me I shift 1 and...", what I'm suggesting is "he attacks me I shift 1 as an interrupt to that attack." It's very powerful, but is limited to 1/round, takes up the use of any other interrupt you might want to use that round, and only helps dodge melée attacks without reach.

Buccaneer's Savvy - 9th level daily power - martial, weapon, stance
Close Burst 1. Target Each enemy in burst you can see.
Attack Dex vs AC
Hit 2[W] + Dex and you immobilize the target until the end of your next turn.
Effect You enter the Buccaneer's Stance. While this stance is active, you add a +1 bonus to AC for every enemy adjacent to you.

Whats the feel you're going for here? Having a controller immobilize a bunch of enemies around them is weird, but I like the stance itself!

This class is focused on stances, like the barbarian with rages and the warden with the polymorphs.

Right that's why I suggested using the essentials fighter/rogue as models instead of the at-will/encounter/daily classes.

It feels like a great idea, but I can see how can I bring it to the game mechanics. Can you help? Maybe a power as a example, or anything else.

When I think of a 'swashbuckler' I envision a lightly armored rapier-wielding smart-ass tumbling about and adapting to a changing battlefield. The idea of "movement chains" is that the swashbuckler adapts the way they move to the situation and comes out on top/makes it work to his advantage.

Here are my very rough examples...

Climbing and jumping could become blurred together allowing "wall running", while still allowing a charge. The more squares you cover in this way, the greater the risk of slipping up, but the higher your defense bonus vs. opportunity attacks. Running up walls? Sure if you have enough momentum! Leaping off a rope as if you had a running start? Sure if youve reached a number of trigger squares equal to the length of the jump.

The player could 1/round as a free action define a "trigger square" at least 8 squares away which when they reach triggers one of 3 movement class features. The idea is there is terrain in the background that the swashbuckler sees how to exploit. The more trigger squares you reach without interruption (eg. Hit by an attack) the greater the effects of the movement class feature.

Each enemy the swashbuckler passes while moving on his turn grants him a +1 speed bonus and/or +1 defense vs opportunity attacks and/or +1 to next Athletics/Acrobatics check (up to primary stat max).

These could even be built into different stances. One stance might even allow them to react swiftly to a forced movemen effect to start a movement chain.

Did that make sense?

 

[Quickleaf]

The[FONT=Arial Black, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] Environment Awareness class feature was created to feels something like this, but I cound't realize how to do it work within the game mechanics. So, you can use that Int or Cha bonus provided to ask your DM if you can do things like you're saying, since it was exactly what I had in mind.
[/FONT][/FONT]

Your class feature provides a flat skill bonus. That's fine but it's completely different from what I was suggesting.

I'm saying the swashbuckler leaves a square (say 1/round), and that square be becomes either helpful or hindering terrain (their choice). You'd have to look over different terrain types in both DMGs to find something that works (without including a long list to choose from). That square of terrain would last until the end of the encounter, or it might be a one-shot thing that disappears once used.

Ex: Swashbuckler leaps over barrel, and makes it helpful terrain. It now acts as cover until the end of the encounter. Or the next creature to follow his path gains +1 speed and +primary stat Athletics as the barrel catapults them forward.

Ex: Swashbuckler leaps over a barrel, and makes it hindering terrain. It now acts as difficult terrain and while on or adjacent to the barrel's square a creature grants combat advantage. This lasts until the end of the encounter unless an enemy attacks the barrel or takes 8 damage to just crash through it.

 

[JackFrostAgain]

@Quickleaf
@Rune

I will try to awnser you guys without that messing quote thing...

First of all, I'm trying to go foward in the class creation, so you guys might want to donwload the PDF with the first 10 level powers. The PDF include the flavor text, and I do need help to improve it. My first language is portuguese (I'm Brazilian). I don't have even a single book of the Essentials Series and I don't intend to buy then for now ( I choose the original books, in english, because I don't like translates at all, though).

The link for it can be found here:
https://www.4shared.com/document/mZ4PKD2q/Swashbuckler.html

Now for the specifics sugestion you guys made, you might keep in mind that:

1 - The Swashbuckler archetype involves a wide range of concepts like the Musketeer, the Pirate, the Bucaneer, the Fencer and so on. So, some stuff you guys want to see in the core class can be emulated by powers (specially utility powers), paragon paths and feats, so you can provide a interesting character for anyone who wants to play a martial controller that fights with light armor and blade.

2 - The class do need a movement based feature, since it is a melee controller and need to get in the midle of the combat with haste. For this, I might change the Enviroment Awareness feature to let him do it.

3 - For the defensive and survivability issues you guys presents: the class features powers are really powerful! An at-will immediate interrupt that let you improve your AC and reflex defense in 2~4 and also gives a possible defensive movement is sick! And you need to remember that the swashbuckler already have a high AC and Reflex value both because of the Cunning feature (that provides a bonus similar to a large shield) and for it be a dexterity based class. The major problem I see is that it keeps the class from have other powers that let him immediate react or interrupt - or this powers should be even more powerful than the class features ones.

4 - You need to keep in mind that I'm using only the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master Guide and Player's Handbook 2 as base for my creation (and the character builder updates that was released before december, 2010, the last time I paid the subscribe). If you camewith Essential or more recent sugestions you might need to explain it better for me to understand.