Martial Dailies - How so?

[Stone Dog]

Sorry, I don't buy the "martial-is-sorta-magical" argument. When I envision the martial "power source," I see that as sheer skill and awesomeness. No magic, no mojo, no wuxia.

Ever consider that you might turn out to be objectively wrong then? What if the entire design point of the martial power source includes chi or mojo or non-skill related awesomeness? yes, the main schtick of the martial source is raw battle without spell effects, but it does seem to be leaning towards being touched be a little something more than simple training. Just like in Earthdawn, everybody uses a bit of something special eventually.

I am not converting to 4e. I recognize that it is not the game for me. I want to make sense out of the parts I like, so I can convert them to other systems.

You don't seem to like daily powers for fighters, but you want to justify them. Can you see how that might be hard for people to work around? If you just want to take the bits you like and make them work, why not abandon martial dailies all together and give them something else to make up for it?

 

[GnomeWorks]

Despite my initial belief that Iron Heroes is "obsolte" with 4E, there might still be room for it...

Part of the idea behind IH tokens is to encourage a particular playstyle. Take the armiger, for instance - he gains armor tokens when he is hit, or when his DR absorbs so much damage. That encourages the armiger to get into the thick of things, to gain tokens to fuel his abilities.

Some character types - such as rogues or assassins - should begin a combat with full token pools, with few chances to refill it in combat. This represents their absurd combat ability (sneak attack) but also the idea that they're glass cannons: once they lose the element of surprise, they don't have much to work with. Others, such as the armiger, should begin encounters with empty pools, and - through the course of the combat - fill it. Yet other classes would have different token gain schemes.

Tokens are an amazing idea, and I think they go a long way in imbuing class abilities with flavor, if you go about it right.

 

[GnomeWorks]

Ever consider that you might turn out to be objectively wrong then? What if the entire design point of the martial power source includes chi or mojo or non-skill related awesomeness? yes, the main schtick of the martial source is raw battle without spell effects, but it does seem to be leaning towards being touched be a little something more than simple training. Just like in Earthdawn, everybody uses a bit of something special eventually.

I'm simply stating my interpretation of the power source. Since I'm not moving to 4e, I don't care if I'm "right" or "wrong" in regards to what 4e's given interpretation is.

If some martial powers turn out to be so heavily entrenched in chi or mojo or what-have-you, then I simply won't use those abilities. I did the same thing with Bo9S - I took out all the magical maneuvers, and just used the ones that seemed to be based upon skill or that could be rationalized as such.

You don't seem to like daily powers for fighters, but you want to justify them. Can you see how that might be hard for people to work around? If you just want to take the bits you like and make them work, why not abandon martial dailies all together and give them something else to make up for it?

Nope, because somebody already did it.

As for abandoning martial dailies and doing something else - I very well might. But I like having the option open. If sense can be made of martial dailies, then perhaps that same rationale could be applied to later mechanics that I can't make sense out of.

 

[Stone Dog]

I'm simply stating my interpretation of the power source. Since I'm not moving to 4e, I don't care if I'm "right" or "wrong" in regards to what 4e's given interpretation is.

Fair enough. I'm just saying if it comes out that the PHB flat out states that martial characters use their skill and determination to draw on the ambient energies of the environment and their own bodies to perform feats impossible to mundane masters of combat and somebody says "Well, that isn't what I think it is" then somebody else has ample justification to say "Well, you are wrong then."

This is all hypothetical, mind you and I'm not saying it is what is going on in this thread. I was just curious. 4E D&D might not have the broad justification that makes it appealing as a generic system like D20 did, but at least it looks like you recognize that and are more interested in making it what you want it to be rather than just complaining that it isn't that way already.

 

[GnomeWorks]

Fair enough. I'm just saying if it comes out that the PHB flat out states that martial characters use their skill and determination to draw on the ambient energies of the environment and their own bodies to perform feats impossible to mundane masters of combat and somebody says "Well, that isn't what I think it is" then somebody else has ample justification to say "Well, you are wrong then."

And so far as 4e goes, then, they would be justified in saying so.

This is all hypothetical, mind you and I'm not saying it is what is going on in this thread. I was just curious. 4E D&D might not have the broad justification that makes it appealing as a generic system like D20 did, but at least it looks like you recognize that and are more interested in making it what you want it to be rather than just complaining that it isn't that way already.

I think 4e has strayed far afield, in several ways, from what I'm looking for in a game. Of course, it has also made me examine 3.5 more carefully, and I have decided that it isn't what I'm looking for, either.

Both have elements that I think are well-done. Rather than complain about either one, I'm taking the things I like from both, coupled with things that I think should be in a game system, and making a homebrew system.

 

[Kwalish Kid]

I said my issue with the idea was from a simulationist view, not a gamist one.

Sad but true, simulationism is is your problem. If you want your rules to only runa s a model for things in the game world, you must drop daily martial powers. Additionally, I think you have to drop encounter powers or set them up like some of the 3.5 tactical feats.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

It's the "you need to take a breather" concept that makes encounter powers work, just on a larger scale. You're doing something a lot more awesome, so the breather is longer.

If you're going with the action + psyche option here are some potential correllaries:

1.) This particular zone stresses brain chemistry enough that you need a full REM cycle to recover to a prepped state.

2.) An undifferentiated use of the zone is an action point. Daily powers rely on extensive rehearsing of the maneuver to let you tap muscle memory when in the zone. That's why you have to learn them and have more options as you level up. The amount of training involved lets you get more use out of the zone, but also makes it a more stressed use resulting in an inability to repeat each maneuver at its full potential without reseting your pysche.

3.) You gain additional ability to tap into the zone from the boost in confidence you get from overcoming challenges - action points a milestones - but this doesn't represent true rest, and the confidence boosting isn't as efficient. Thus you don't get dailies back via confidence merely action points.

 

[Warbringer]

Emphasis mine.

To use the Ranger example, Split the Tree is a specific stunt. Sure, Riardon knows that he can pull two arrows and load them into his bow, but giving him the ability as a daily power prevents the DM from having to track precise positioning, wind speed, and other factors in order to figure out when the conditions are just right that Riardon has a chance of pulling it off. Instead, Riardon's player gets to say when the "conditions are right."

Bingo

 

[GnomeWorks]

If you're going with the action + psyche option here are some potential correllaries: ...

Those sound like solid ideas. I'm not a fan of action points, though; but your first point sounds like a good, more involved explanation of what I envision to be going on.

Sad but true, simulationism is is your problem. If you want your rules to only runa s a model for things in the game world, you must drop daily martial powers. Additionally, I think you have to drop encounter powers or set them up like some of the 3.5 tactical feats.

...did you read the thread, before you posted? Because a solution that I can live with has been proposed.

And encounter powers pose no issue for my interpretation of the simulationist view.

 

[Warbringer]

I have a system of combat moves based on Iron Heroes. In this mechanic the hero can do things based on the monster special ability progression

1/day
x/per day
at will

So imagine the player says ... " I want my 6th level ranger to be able to be able to deliver a blow that does extra damage, say 2d6 and knocks the monster prone."

OK, moves have costs...

extra damage 2/extra die; knock prone 3... all in all a cost of 7 (4+3) ...

now ...

the max cost that can be spent on a combat move is ...

1/day : level/2
3/per day: level/1.5
at will: level

However, you can pay extra cost by taking a disadvantage, in this case something like extra action does the trick generating a bonus of 1 for spending a swift (minor) action also for the attack

So the combat move is 1/day: 2d6 damage, knock prone, (minor action)

At on reaching 7th level he dumps the (minor action) assuming he doesn't want a different move.

At 11th it becomes a 3/day; at 14th at will....

Using this, btw, wizards also can dump spell levels into adding moves to spells... So, in affect, a 7th wizard casts a fireball, but wants to add knock prone..cost is 3, he pays the difference in spell levles, so his spell does 4d6 damage and knocks prone those taking damage.