Martial Dailies - How so?

Li Shenron said:
I have to say that all these example make no sense at all to me.

These example "seem" to work, but the fact is that they were used only once because that was enough to end the encounter. After using them (successfully) there was no more enemy to defeat, god to wound or achilles to kill. But if there had been two at the same time, all these examples would fall apart.
Actually, that is EXACTLY why they used their once-a-day powers in those situations, because they knew they needed to as opposed to using them on ever single last bad guy that came their way.
If there were 2 gods to kill, I'm sure a second once only power would have been used.
The problem I think you're having is you can't quite see this game as the STORY its supposed to be. The reason you can't do your "Super special awesome mega attack" to every single bad guy is because it's supposed to be climatic. It could be the first blow of the round to do the most damage, or the last move you use to finish them off, but its still your climatic move that sets the scene. Otherwise People would be making Chuck Norris Roundhouse Kick Jokes about you and your character.
 

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Mallus said:
Why spend time and energy looking for ways to make D&D not work? If something doesn't make sense to you, apply a few quick rationalizations and then get back to saving the kingdom, or razing it, if you prefer.

I know how I want to play the game and interpret the way it is played. If something does not fit with that, I'll try to find a way to make sense of it, and if I cannot, then I don't use that particular mechanic.

I have lots of spare time and energy to expend in this endeavour, so I don't have an issue spending seemingly absurd amounts of time trying to make sense of the game.

Demanding rigorous and logical consistency, plus real-world sim aspects (someone brought up a desire for a realistic economics, now really...) is merely setting oneself up for dissapointment.

I disagree. 3.5's economic system is utterly ridiculous - surely a more sensical one could be devised. I'm not looking for perfection, here, merely something that seems a bit less ridiculous.
 

Lord Xtheth said:
The problem I think you're having is you can't quite see this game as the STORY its supposed to be. The reason you can't do your "Super special awesome mega attack" to every single bad guy is because it's supposed to be climatic. It could be the first blow of the round to do the most damage, or the last move you use to finish them off, but its still your climatic move that sets the scene. Otherwise People would be making Chuck Norris Roundhouse Kick Jokes about you and your character.

You choose to interpret it as a story. I do not. Please do not tell me - or anyone else - how to play the game. Thanks.
 

GnomeWorks said:
For something like luck, I totally agree. I even use a Luck stat in my current games, and my justification for the luck points it grants you refreshing every session is that luck is metaphysical, and therefore the mechanic should be a metagame mechanic.

There are exceptions to the idea that everything the player decides to do, the character decides to do in-game.

Excellent! Problem solved, then!

Give the Ranger a 'Splitting the Tree' Luck Point that refreshes daily. The metaphysical luck can be expended by the player as a metagame action in order to create the conditions necessary to give Splitting the Tree a chance of success.

-Hyp.
 

Hypersmurf said:
Excellent! Problem solved, then!

Give the Ranger a 'Splitting the Tree' Luck Point that refreshes daily. The metaphysical luck can be expended by the player as a metagame action in order to create the conditions necessary to give Splitting the Tree a chance of success.

...no, sorry, I don't buy that justification. It doesn't seem like a luck thing to me - you are consciously pulling two arrows out of your quiver, nocking them, and shooting them at two different targets. I would rather martial abilities be based on skill and skill alone, and not bring in any outside force (and I would consider luck an "outside force").
 

GnomeWorks said:
You choose to interpret it as a story. I do not. Please do not tell me - or anyone else - how to play the game. Thanks.
Actually, if you ever read the introduction to any RPG ever, even Wizards has told you to see it as a story.

You're welcome
 

Lord Xtheth said:
Actually, if you ever read the introduction to any RPG ever, even Wizards has told you to see it as a story.

I don't care what WotC, TSR, or anyone else says in regards to how I should view the game. I will play and interpret the game as I choose.
 

GnomeWorks said:
...no, sorry, I don't buy that justification. It doesn't seem like a luck thing to me - you are consciously pulling two arrows out of your quiver, nocking them, and shooting them at two different targets.

You're consciously pulling two arrows out of your quiver, nocking them, and shooting them at two different targets. And if those targets are not both somewhere along a particular pair of trajectories, you won't be able to hit both; if you aim the right arrow to hit, the left arrow will miss, and vice versa.

It's only when the two targets are both on the correct paths that you even have a chance of pulling it off.

The player spends his Luck point, and says "I'm declaring that, by fortuitous and once-per-day coincidence, these two targets are standing in just the right spot for Splitting the Tree."

At which point the Ranger PC says "Hey - those two targets are standing in just the right spot for Splitting the Tree!", and consciously pulls two arrows out of his quiver, nocks them, and shoots them at two different targets... making an attack roll to see if he's actually able to properly capitalise on this fortuitous coincidence.

The rest of the time, the opponents never line themselves up just right, and the Ranger knows - from his long experience of judging the trajectories that two arrows shot together will follow - that shooting two arrows will be a waste of time, because at least one of them is guaranteed to miss.

-Hyp.
 

What I dislike about GNS is the concept that they are mutually exclusive ideas in an RPG and that if you have one, then you must reject the others. That's hogwash! They have to work together, and here's why:

Simulation creates a world. This world creates the illusion of freedom. It simulates everything the character (an avatar of the player) can experience: sights, sounds, tastes, etc. It acts as setting, backdrop, and physical law for most of the experience, and interacts with the character in a believable manner (gravity pulls down, sun's rise and set, fire is hot) to give a framework for the PCs to work in. How and what they do is handled separately.

What they do is Narrative. Its as complex as Greek Tragedy or as simple as going to the store. Everyone tells a story. Some lay it out ahead of time (traditional narrativism) while others allow the story to develop tabula rasa (without outside interference). Everyone's actions tells a story: from you telling your buddy what happened on your way to the grocery store to the most harrowing biography. To say the story is unimportant is to ignore continuity and purpose; you create a character adrift in a vanity faire of experiences (mundane and exotic) without greater context.

How they do it is Gamism. These are the resolution of mechanic that allow the character to interact with the simulation and create the narrative. That is the combat mechanic to hit, the skill check to jump, the saving throw vs. poison, the spot check, etc. Even the mechanic of "DM fiat" resolves a nagging question (Can I touch the statue?) so not all gamism is dice and rules.

Overemphasis on one can be accomplished easily, but trying to deny the others (or reduce they're overall impact) is detrimental. Too much simulation creates a world where PCs are adrift and have no greater context or purpose. They are not important, they just happen to be played by people other than the GM. Too much narrativism is railroading the loss of meaningful action: the PC is a spectator to some greater story. Too much gamism reduces the PC to pawn: mechanical game piece used to play a game that is devoid of individual "character" or story: no one names or tells stories about their monopoly shoe.

D&D cannot (even 4e) be shoehorned into one of those categories: all of them exist. Simulationism lives in the new emphasis on monster ecology (beholders came from the far realm, giants are lesser titans) and spell interactions (how raise dead and the shadowfell interact). Gamism is emphasized in the balancing of spellcasters to noncasters and the idea of resource managment (dailies, encounter powers, healing surges, Action points) equal for all classes. And narativism lives in the USE of those resources: Morrock using his healing surge to second wind. Karthos using her daily power. Even if the resource comes from a game mechanic, the PC decides in the narrative (the session played) when would it be most beneficial to use it. Simulation knocks again in explaining how the daily is perceived (two arrows knocked, a knife in the gut). Each works in harmony. Having simulation try to do all the heavy lifting (IE: explain how the resource came about and why he would use it now) is counterproductive at best, maddening at worst.

Lastly: I'm glad I could help GnomeWorks wrap his head around martial dailies. Always here to help.
 

Hypersmurf said:
The player spends his Luck point, and says "I'm declaring that, by fortuitous and once-per-day coincidence, these two targets are standing in just the right spot for Splitting the Tree."

IMO, a character's abilities should not give the character the ability to dictate terrain or NPC behavior. So, I'm sorry, but this explanation still doesn't work for me.
 

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