Martial Pool - a New combat mechanic?

[Galloglaich]

Hm, I may have been drawing too fine a distinction, but I didn't think you wanted combat itself to be realistic, just more dynamic in the possibilities and variables it offered, based on the introduction.

Given that the first sentence clearly outlines the book's goals without mentioning making combat realistic, and that the second puts quotes around the word "realism" in what seems like a bit of a jab, I really thought you were drawing upon real elements without trying to make the d20 System present realistic combat.

My bad if I misrepresented you!

No, I think it's my bad actually. I really appreciated the review and I think in my introduction I probably went a bit overboard in trying to distance myself from previous attempts to do realistic combat. I put "realism" in quotes because ultimately, it is a subjective concept, not to mention a kind of a lightning rod in the gaming world. Gamers tend to react negatively to the word because in the past it has been so closely associated with tedious complexity. Usually "realistic" combat systems in older games tended to focus heavily on hit placement, wound tracking, etc. and got bogged down in an infinity of charts, arithmetic and die-rolling.

I was trying to sidestep all that with the Codex by putting it at a level of abstraction suitible for a game like DnD, but the Codex was in fact an attempt to make combat more realistic. I wanted to bring the exciting ebb and flow of martial arts sparring to the game, which I think is the same feel as a real sword fight. I also believed that would make it smoother, faster paced, more dramatic / cinematic and more fun.

This is counterintuitive to most people due to those other games I won't mention lest I offend somebody. It is a heretical concept in gaming theory (the initial idea for the Codex was unpopular on the Forge for example when I first broached it there four years ago) but I personally think you can bring that realistic basis into your game at a suitably high level of abstraction for a paper and pencil RPG and still get the same realistic (intuitive, immersive) feel from the underlying structure.

The bottom line though, is if the Codex makes combat more fun and exciting, as the review seemed to imply, then it succeded at it's goal, since most gamers really won't care if it's based on real fighting or not. To me that is a win-win.

The only other very minor quibble on the review is that I wish it had mentioned the codex website, where we have tons of that 'fluff' which was missing from the Codex itself (which the review correctly pointed out is quite dense and curt in it's presentation) but thats my fault for not advertising the website more prominently in the PDF (subsequently corrected).

Overall the review was great to be honest, the review seemed to get the gist of what I was trying to do which is the really important thing, and it seems to have generated a lot of sales so I can't complain I'm really pleased that the codex has found an audience with gamers (however tiny) because it's a sign I'm not the only person on the planet who likes the basic idea after all. I may be a heretic but it's nice to know I'm not a complete lunatic! I'm even starting to believe the Codex and the Martial Pool in particular may ultimately find a niche in the DnD world.

G.

 

[Alzrius]

The only other very minor quibble on the review is that I wish it had mentioned the codex website, where we have tons of that 'fluff' which was missing from the Codex itself (which the review correctly pointed out is quite dense and curt in it's presentation) but thats my fault for not advertising the website more prominently in the PDF (subsequently corrected).

You could post a response to the review (it'd appear right below it in its own highlighted box) talking about that. That way, people reading the review will see that too.

 

[Achan hiArusa]

I just don't understand why you would want to wait until 11th level to really start having fun with the Martial Pool.

We try to have it get to Max (4 pool) early and then it expands from there was users get more and more Martial Feats which give you free dice situationally. Because you are using some dice for attack, some for defense, and quite often using multiple dice for the same attack, it does not end up making combat immensely more lethal, just a bit faster. The higher-level players continue to gain advantages in the fight due to more Martial feats.

I know you are envisioning a different kind of system but I'd suggest playtesting a bit and see how it works, in practice it's a lot of fun to have the extra dice I think you should take advantage of it earlier than that. But then again I tend to play lower level games to be honest so 11th level seems really high to me.

G.

I think part of it is that you and I are looking at it from different approaches. And true mine is currently an armchair approach. I am wanting to replace iterative attacks with something that doesn't make you feel like you are losing your last few attacks. And I've run games from 1st level to past 30th and I wanted to try to spread it out a bit.

 

[Galloglaich]

Yeah I think iterative attacks, fighting defensively, combat expertise, power attack and all that can and should be basically thrown out the window and replaced with the martial pool.

My point is merely that the 4 dice on each side really doesn't feel like all that much in practice, though it may look like a lot on paper. Two or three dice feels really limiting after you have played with the MP a bit.

I think the way to make higher level characters grow (way) beyond that initial limitation is to give them circumstantial bonuses from feats which grant extra dice for a given attack or defense. That way their odds improve steadily without forcing an arithmetical escalation as bonuses quickly reach the level +20, +30 whatever, that becomes completely out of reach of lower level opponents.

I.e. by simply adding an extra dice or two on a given roll you steadily improve the odds without having to put yourself vastly beyond the basic range of 1-20, or locking out the possibility of unusual events.. and everyone gets used to the same basic 4 die mechanic pretty early as to how their tactics work etc. Meanwhile a relatively low level fighter can have a chance against higher level opponents by committing all of their pool to a specific attack or defense roll.

But as you said you may be envisioning something different, and I admittedly have no experience at all DM'ing 30th level players. I'll be real interested to hear what you think when you try some games. I personally recommend just running a few combats yourself even.

G.

 

[Achan hiArusa]

Got my response eaten.

In short, to you a 2 dice pool from levels 1-5 would look constricting as you are used to having up to 4 dice by 4th level and beyond. For someone used to RAW it would be a much greater degree of freedom than what they are used to. They can do it normally by using one die to move and one to attack. But then they can use a die to defend or use two dice to attack or defend. More options than RAW. I would just rule that a spell that requires a standard action uses all but one die from the pool (minimum 1 die) and running requires all the dice from your pool or 4 (whichever is less).

Maybe I should get my roomate to run some combats from your system as written if you have some sample characters I could use. He did make me learn Magic (not really my thing). I have a nibble on a gaming group so hopefully I can incorporate some house rules.

 

[Galloglaich]

I'm supposed to do some sample Characters for our website, I may do some tomorrow. I just converted ten monsters for the codex which are on the website now as a PDF (it's still in beta, when it's finished there will be 23 Monsters)

If I get a chance I'll do 3 or 4 Characters tomorrow and upload those as well, and I'll notify you. If not I'll probably do it some time this week. Then you can try playing a few combats and maybe you'll see the paradigm shift I'm talking about, or maybe not, either way it will be interesting to see what you think of it.

I'll let you know when I get some done.

G.

EDIT: By the way the rules for standard actions and movement in the codex have been hashed out and added to the latest version of the PDF, you may want to check and see if you have the latest update & if you have automatic updates turned on...

 

[Achan hiArusa]

I don't know, I only have 17 downloads of the file left. Xp

 

[Galloglaich]

Be glad to send you a comp if you run out

I did three characters yesterday, a knight, a samurai and an Irish raparee (a type of bandit) I haven't made the PDF yet but I'll probably finish it tomorrow night, I'll let you know when they are uploaded.

G.

 

[Achan hiArusa]

Oh, Knight vs. Samurai.

 

[Galloglaich]

Funny you mention that, I have them done up, should be ready for upload to codexmartialis.com later today or tonight, depending on when I find the time.

EDIT: they are uploaded now.