Galloglaich
First Post
Ok I posted on there but I don't think anyone noticed, they were too busy arguing about who could out min-max the other.
G.
Martial Pool - a New combat mechanic?
- Thread starter Galloglaich
- Start date
Ok I posted on there but I don't think anyone noticed, they were too busy arguing about who could out min-max the other.
G.
Achan hiArusa
Explorer
Really, I would have never imagined.
Now, what about using the Martial Pool or a variant for skills. Skill rolls still suffer the pain of having a great skill mod and lousy rolls, but I was wondering for my iterative attack variant (http://www.enworld.org/forum/4481717-post10.html), so say if the character gets:
8 + Int skill points: Equivalent to a fighter
6 or 4 + Int skill points: Equivalent to a cleric/rogue
2 + Int skill points: Equivalent to a wizard
So for a rogue it would be: levels 1-5 2 dice, levels 6-10 3 dice, levels 11-15 4 dice, levels 16+ 5 dice.
for a barbarian, bard, druid, and ranger it would be: level 1 1 die, levels 2-7 2 dice, levels 8-14 3 dice, levels 15+ 4 dice.
for a cleric, fighter, sorcerer, wizard it would be: level 1 1 die, levels 2-11 2 dice, levels 12+ 3 dice
I would love to test all this out instead of being an armchair player, but my gaming group is about 250 miles away from me and homebrew doesn't work really well online.
Now, what about using the Martial Pool or a variant for skills. Skill rolls still suffer the pain of having a great skill mod and lousy rolls, but I was wondering for my iterative attack variant (http://www.enworld.org/forum/4481717-post10.html), so say if the character gets:
8 + Int skill points: Equivalent to a fighter
6 or 4 + Int skill points: Equivalent to a cleric/rogue
2 + Int skill points: Equivalent to a wizard
So for a rogue it would be: levels 1-5 2 dice, levels 6-10 3 dice, levels 11-15 4 dice, levels 16+ 5 dice.
for a barbarian, bard, druid, and ranger it would be: level 1 1 die, levels 2-7 2 dice, levels 8-14 3 dice, levels 15+ 4 dice.
for a cleric, fighter, sorcerer, wizard it would be: level 1 1 die, levels 2-11 2 dice, levels 12+ 3 dice
I would love to test all this out instead of being an armchair player, but my gaming group is about 250 miles away from me and homebrew doesn't work really well online.
Galloglaich
First Post
Yeah that sounds workable to me, though it never did quite make sense to me why Fighters and Wizards would be so bad at skills in 3.5, I know it's needed for balance but.... anyway for skill checks within a combat I allow people to use the Martial Pool, thats in the Codex. For outside of Combat circumstances (and as an extra resource within combat as well) we use something slightly different, an idea I borrowed from a supplement I was going to do for Riddle of Steel before the new owner kind of went moribund... we use what I call "Honor Points" and "Piety Points". These are special points players can earn (or lose) in different ways, and they can drop them into a combat dice pool at a critical juncture or for a skill roll etc. They are a finite resource though so are used sparingly.
Sounds like you need to find a new local gaming group. I find recruiting non-gamers is usually more fun than playing with experienced people anyway
G.
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Achan hiArusa
Explorer
I could just base it off skill ranks.
Galloglaich
First Post
Another review came out, apparently from another one of the staff reviewers at RPGNow, and the Martial Pool in particular was singled out for praise. Slightly annoying that he says I'm not trying to make combat realistic, since I was (everything in there is right out of HEMA and a few other historical martial arts systems) it's just that I was also trying not to make it complex, but, given what he meant, in an indirect way it's a compliment. I particularly liked the last sentence.
DriveThruRPG.com - Codex Martialis V1.0 Reviews
===============================
A fight in a d20 game is, at its heart, something of a bore. I don’t mean a combat encounter per se, but an actual melee battle between characters. Notwithstanding a couple of basic combat maneuvers (e.g. trip, disarm, etc.) and whatever feats the characters have, all they’re really doing is standing there and bashing each other until one falls over. There’s really nothing else to do but keep rolling your to-hit and, if successful, damage; it’s basically about attrition as much as anything else. It’s this problem of boring combat that the Codex Martialis looks to fix.
To be clear, the book isn’t trying to create a more realistic version of combat. Rather, it’s drawn inspiration from actual fighting to present new options and tactics to make combat more vibrant. In doing so, however, the basic rules for combat in the d20 System must be torn down to some degree, so that other options can be introduced. Perhaps the greatest change here is that of the Martial Pool. A Martial Pool is a small collection of d20’s (never more than four) that can be allocated for different things in each combat round. Do you want to make four attacks? Use one d20 for each. Do you want to make two attacks and have each stand a greater chance of hitting? Use 2d20 for each attack, dropping the lowest die roll in each case. Do you want to focus more on defense? You can use your d20’s for Active Defense (where you make a roll to defend) or even with your saving throws. It’s a great idea that unto itself adds a lot of options to even basic combat.
Of course, that’s only scratching the surface. In its opening pages, the book introduces concepts regarding how each weapon grants different bonuses to types of attack (attack types are redefined as Reach and Speed), as well as Weapon Defense. Weapons also have a Primary attack type, among other attack types they can do (a dagger can slash or pierce, but only the latter is the primary type, so only attacks of that type can score critical hits). There’s also rules on Counterattacking, the ranges at which combat occurs, Active or Passive Defense, and quite a bit more. After this is a series of feats that take advantage of these new rules, and several appendices covering things like spellcasting in battle, how animals fight, and tables with the revised statistics for weapons.
All of the above leads me to my major complaint about Codex Martialis: it feels fairly complicated. The important thing to take away from the previous sentence here is that the book FEELS complicated; it’s actually not that complicated once you get used to it. However, a lot of groups probably won’t get that far, because the series of new and revised combat options, statistics, and maneuvers are presented one right after another, and are fairly intimidating in doing so. There’s no examples given anywhere in the book to help walk you through what’s presented, nor is there any kind of quick- or –easy-reference charts or diagrams (save for the weapon statistics themselves in the appendix) to break down all the new maneuvers and ideas. All of this means that by the time the new rules are presented, they feel overbearing and scary. Luckily, most of them are modular (particularly the part with the Martial Pool, which is my favorite aspect of the book), but the above is still the book’s major weakness.
In terms of presentation, the Codex Martialis does fairly well for itself. The book is fairly unassuming in its presentation, with fairly few illustrations in its pages. What illustrations it does have though are fairly stark black and white pieces that use a heavy amount of grey shading, and almost feel like charcoal sketches in many instances. Most of the pages borders are very thin, save for one rather ostentatious color border that appears every few pages. The book also periodically has excerpts from historical writings regarding combat to open and close various sections, which make for a nice touch (though the font is a tad ornate). There are, however, no bookmarks, which is an oversight in a book this long.
The Codex Martialis is a book that completely succeeds in its goals of making d20 combat into a more dynamic, tactical exercise. The plethora of new rules and structures presented in how it reworks d20 combat are excellent, and their modular nature allows you to (most of the time) freely pick and choose what you want to adopt and not adopt. However, that’s only if you can make yourself wade through the rather hefty presentation and really absorb what’s presented here. The trick is not to be scared off after the initial read-through, and carefully go over what’s presented. It may take some work, particularly to get your entire group to adopt whatever rules you pick out (since added complexity is the trade-off for greater options), but if ordinary d20 combat is boring and no longer fun, this book is the answer.
DriveThruRPG.com - Codex Martialis V1.0 Reviews
===============================
A fight in a d20 game is, at its heart, something of a bore. I don’t mean a combat encounter per se, but an actual melee battle between characters. Notwithstanding a couple of basic combat maneuvers (e.g. trip, disarm, etc.) and whatever feats the characters have, all they’re really doing is standing there and bashing each other until one falls over. There’s really nothing else to do but keep rolling your to-hit and, if successful, damage; it’s basically about attrition as much as anything else. It’s this problem of boring combat that the Codex Martialis looks to fix.
To be clear, the book isn’t trying to create a more realistic version of combat. Rather, it’s drawn inspiration from actual fighting to present new options and tactics to make combat more vibrant. In doing so, however, the basic rules for combat in the d20 System must be torn down to some degree, so that other options can be introduced. Perhaps the greatest change here is that of the Martial Pool. A Martial Pool is a small collection of d20’s (never more than four) that can be allocated for different things in each combat round. Do you want to make four attacks? Use one d20 for each. Do you want to make two attacks and have each stand a greater chance of hitting? Use 2d20 for each attack, dropping the lowest die roll in each case. Do you want to focus more on defense? You can use your d20’s for Active Defense (where you make a roll to defend) or even with your saving throws. It’s a great idea that unto itself adds a lot of options to even basic combat.
Of course, that’s only scratching the surface. In its opening pages, the book introduces concepts regarding how each weapon grants different bonuses to types of attack (attack types are redefined as Reach and Speed), as well as Weapon Defense. Weapons also have a Primary attack type, among other attack types they can do (a dagger can slash or pierce, but only the latter is the primary type, so only attacks of that type can score critical hits). There’s also rules on Counterattacking, the ranges at which combat occurs, Active or Passive Defense, and quite a bit more. After this is a series of feats that take advantage of these new rules, and several appendices covering things like spellcasting in battle, how animals fight, and tables with the revised statistics for weapons.
All of the above leads me to my major complaint about Codex Martialis: it feels fairly complicated. The important thing to take away from the previous sentence here is that the book FEELS complicated; it’s actually not that complicated once you get used to it. However, a lot of groups probably won’t get that far, because the series of new and revised combat options, statistics, and maneuvers are presented one right after another, and are fairly intimidating in doing so. There’s no examples given anywhere in the book to help walk you through what’s presented, nor is there any kind of quick- or –easy-reference charts or diagrams (save for the weapon statistics themselves in the appendix) to break down all the new maneuvers and ideas. All of this means that by the time the new rules are presented, they feel overbearing and scary. Luckily, most of them are modular (particularly the part with the Martial Pool, which is my favorite aspect of the book), but the above is still the book’s major weakness.
In terms of presentation, the Codex Martialis does fairly well for itself. The book is fairly unassuming in its presentation, with fairly few illustrations in its pages. What illustrations it does have though are fairly stark black and white pieces that use a heavy amount of grey shading, and almost feel like charcoal sketches in many instances. Most of the pages borders are very thin, save for one rather ostentatious color border that appears every few pages. The book also periodically has excerpts from historical writings regarding combat to open and close various sections, which make for a nice touch (though the font is a tad ornate). There are, however, no bookmarks, which is an oversight in a book this long.
The Codex Martialis is a book that completely succeeds in its goals of making d20 combat into a more dynamic, tactical exercise. The plethora of new rules and structures presented in how it reworks d20 combat are excellent, and their modular nature allows you to (most of the time) freely pick and choose what you want to adopt and not adopt. However, that’s only if you can make yourself wade through the rather hefty presentation and really absorb what’s presented here. The trick is not to be scared off after the initial read-through, and carefully go over what’s presented. It may take some work, particularly to get your entire group to adopt whatever rules you pick out (since added complexity is the trade-off for greater options), but if ordinary d20 combat is boring and no longer fun, this book is the answer.
Achan hiArusa
Explorer
It can be frustrating when people don't get the point.
Galloglaich
First Post
Well by and large it was a good review he gave 4 out of 5 stars and he did pretty much get the point of what the book does, just not the reasoning behind it which to most players really doesn't matter
I'm going to try to get a few more serious reviews done here or at RPGnet probably pretty soon. Sales are starting to pick up and it's getting some good buzz. I'm starting to feel optimistic.
I'm going to try to get a few more serious reviews done here or at RPGnet probably pretty soon. Sales are starting to pick up and it's getting some good buzz. I'm starting to feel optimistic.
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Achan hiArusa
Explorer
Congrats! I also just made a suggestion to Plane Sailing since he wanted something like the old WEG Star Wars mechanic of getting as many actions as your dice pool.
I wonder, would it hurt things in my variant if I just make the die pool standard across all the classes like it is in yours, maybe just do a flat levels 1-5: 2 dice, 6-10: 3 dice, 11-15: 4 dice, 16+: 5 dice no matter what the BAB, and just make allowances for monks and their flurry of blows. I really need to test all these ideas. I have some nibbles on a local gaming group. Hope they pan out.
I wonder, would it hurt things in my variant if I just make the die pool standard across all the classes like it is in yours, maybe just do a flat levels 1-5: 2 dice, 6-10: 3 dice, 11-15: 4 dice, 16+: 5 dice no matter what the BAB, and just make allowances for monks and their flurry of blows. I really need to test all these ideas. I have some nibbles on a local gaming group. Hope they pan out.
Alzrius
The EN World kitten
Hm, I may have been drawing too fine a distinction, but I didn't think you wanted combat itself to be realistic, just more dynamic in the possibilities and variables it offered, based on the introduction.
Given that the first sentence clearly outlines the book's goals without mentioning making combat realistic, and that the second puts quotes around the word "realism" in what seems like a bit of a jab, I really thought you were drawing upon real elements without trying to make the d20 System present realistic combat.
My bad if I misrepresented you!
Galloglaich
First Post
I just don't understand why you would want to wait until 11th level to really start having fun with the Martial Pool.
We try to have it get to Max (4 pool) early and then it expands from there was users get more and more Martial Feats which give you free dice situationally. Because you are using some dice for attack, some for defense, and quite often using multiple dice for the same attack, it does not end up making combat immensely more lethal, just a bit faster. The higher-level players continue to gain advantages in the fight due to more Martial feats.
I know you are envisioning a different kind of system but I'd suggest playtesting a bit and see how it works, in practice it's a lot of fun to have the extra dice I think you should take advantage of it earlier than that. But then again I tend to play lower level games to be honest so 11th level seems really high to me.
G.
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