Achan hiArusa
Explorer
I agree. So the limit of 4 dice would apply and then they would gain an additional MP per attack above that. Man, that makes dragons scary (4 + 5 claw/claw/wing buffet/tail slap/kick = 9).
Martial Pool - a New combat mechanic?
- Thread starter Galloglaich
- Start date
Galloglaich
First Post
yes that is what I was thinking... so if you were unfortunate enough to be grappling with a large animal like a panther or a lion, it could use all five attacks as rake attacks or bites for example. Do you think that makes sense or should there be any restriction on doing multiple attacks of the same type?
With the dragon it would depend on the facing I guess, but it could also concentrate it's attacks as it saw fit. Or should certain types of attacks require more pool than others? A bite might be slower than a claw attack particularly for a large animal....
Also, I have that table in there for animals / monsters reach and speed bonuses for different types of attacks, but that probably should be expanded into things like horns, kicks, tails etc. A tail for example has some reach I would think.
G.
Achan hiArusa
Explorer
I would probably stick to the Claw/Claw/Bite Routine unless they have Improved Multiattack (except for Dragons, they need to be pains in two parts of the human anatomy, because, well they're dragons...). You might want to assess at least a one die penalty for off attacks, because they are getting lots of dice (again Multiattack would ameliorate things). But it does remind me of the urban legend of the martial artist who thought that no human could beat him so he decided to go to the zoo and attack the lions. The zookeeper found shreds of his gi the next day.
Galloglaich
First Post
That doesn't seem to fit that well with how the pool works though does it?
Instead of giving a creature normal bonus to hit with it's "primary attack" and a -5 (or -2 with Multiattack) with a secondary weapon, based on arbitrary factors and forced on a fixed pattern (however comforting to veteran gamers) with the codex which attacks a monster or animal might try in which order would actually be based on reach and speed of each type of attack, the changing range of the fight as it progresses and other factors.
The determination of which is a primary attack seems to be on an illogical basis in DnD. The "secondary attack" is apparently based on how much damage it causes, a real Leopards claws probably do less damage than it's bite, but it's actually easier to hit with claws and more likely to attack with claws first since they have more reach, obviously. (A creature like a snake may have reach with a bite but that is a different type of bite.)
With the codex natural attack types are based on reach and speed. so you would normally actually get a 'claw claw bite' in a more logical order, but an animal or monster wouldn't be forced to fight that way, they would have flexibility, so for example a leopard facing an armored fighter might decide to "pounce" into grapple range and bite to cause more damage / bypass the armor, wheras one facing a man armed with a knife might prefer to circle and attack with his claws.
in the SRD for example a leopard gets the following attacks in "full attack"
Bite +6 melee (1d6+3) and 2 claws +1 melee (1d3+1)
in the Codex that would be
Claws +6 in onset, +8 in melee / grapple (1-6+1 slashing), Bite +3 onset, +7 melee / grapple (1-6+3 piercing) Once at grapple it would be eligable for a rake attack which would be +9 to hit for (1-8+1 slashing)
The codex Loepard is a bit more dangerous than the SRD Leopard
This is put together using the "Standardized Animal Attacks" table in the Codex, a Leopard is a medium creature with a grasping bite so thats reach +0 speed +4, medium claws are reach +3 speed +5. The rake attack is considered one size category larger so equivalent to 'large claws' (1d8 damage), and is +6 to hit but can only be done in grapple range.So effectively, in an initial attack a Leopard would try with his claws first, since they have far better reach. Claws also do very good damage against unarmored targets.
Against a boar which has 6 natural armor according to the SRD (meaning DR of 6 in the codex), the claws would be basically useless unless he did a bypass attack (underbelly) preferably raking with the hind-claws. Opening attacks would probably be more useful as trip attempts or to enter grapple.
Since slashing attacks are very bad against armor in the Codex, the bite would be the only way to cause damage through the Boars tough hide and even there it would be tricky to hurt the beast, if he wanted to kill it quickly he'd want a Critical Hit so multi-dice attacks would be in order. So he wouldn't bite five times, probably use all his dice in one attack because once he gets the bite he can hold on and keep causing damage automatically. After he ot the bite in he'd probably use his pool for defense and grappling checks to hang on while he kept biting... or possibly for rake attacks.
Against a well armed / dangerous human I think the leopard would definitely "pounce" straight to grapple range as soon as it could where a humans reach weapons wouldn't work.
All of this does remind me of how a Leopard (or any cat) actually fights, I think this way it all flows much more naturally and logically but I'm biased
I'm not sure how I would use Multi-Attack or Improved MultiAttack Feats with this though...
Well, again I think it would depend on reach and range etc., the weapons and armor of it's opponents, how many opponents there were, and how big the Dragon was. My chart of animal attacks only currently goes up to "large" by which I was envisioning about Grizzly Bear sized. A Dragon would be a couple of orders of magnitude further up the scale I think.... have to tinker with that a bit, maybe I'll add a few rows on that chart for the next update.
Ah... nature is such a good teacher. Was that a darwin award recipient?
G.
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Galloglaich
First Post
Inspired by this discussion, I ran a new sample combat, Boar vs. Leopard
codexmartialis.com • View topic - Leopard vs. Boar
Normally a Leopard would avoid trying to tackle a full grown boar, but there is a drought. Times are tough, risky measures are called for.
Codex version of each critter is as follows (based on the Sovelior SRD and adapted using the Codex Martialis Appendix 2 "When Animals Attack" Pp 25-26):
Leopard
BAB 3 (HD)
Martial Pool 5 (3 BAB + 2 “extra” attacks)
Init +4
Natural Armor 1
HP 19
Attack------Onset------------------------Melee----------------------Grapple------------------------Damage
Claws--3(base)+3bab +4Dex=+10---4(base) +3bab + 4Dex= +11----6 +3 +4 = +12-------------------1-4 (slash)
Bite---------0 + 3 + 3 = +6-----------4 +3 +3(str) =+10------------6 +3+3 = +12-------------------1-6 +3 (pierce)
Rake---------------------------------------------------------------6 +3+3 = +12------------------1-6 +3 (slash)
Base Defense +7 Passive Defense 15
Weapon Finesse (claws)
Dex bonus +4
Str bonus +3
Special: Pounce (allows him to charge for the cost of only 1 MP), Improved Grab (Codex rules version allows this to work with claws if he hits with both claw attacks as well as with the bite)
This is the SRD version:
http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersAnimal.html#leopard
Boar (really a warthog)
BAB 3 (HD)
Martial Pool 3
Init + 0
Natural Armor 6
HP 25
Attack------------------------Onset---------------------Melee----------Grapple-----------------------Damage
Gore (slashing bite)------------0+3bab+2str=+5------4+3bab+2str=+9-----------6+3+2=+11-----------1-8+2
Base Defense +3 Passive Defense 11
Dex bonus 0
Str bonus +2
Special: Ferocity
This is the SRD version
http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersAnimal.html#boar
The Leopard is more the predator, his extra attacks give him a higher BaB, high Strength and fantastic Dexterity together give him a big advantage in combat. On the other hand, the Boar has a thick hide giving him a natural armor of 6, and his tusks (treated as a slashing bite in the Codex rules) cause serious damage. He also has more hit points than the Leopard and with his ferocity can keep fighting even when he's mortally wounded.
Fight
I'm doing away with the pre-fight stalking, and assume we get the Leopard trying to pounce. I'm ruling that the "Pounce" allows him to charge for the expenditure of only one MP.
Initiative
Leopard 10 +4 = 14
Boar 12 +0 = 12
Round 1 Range =Onset Leopard 19 HP Boar 25 HP
The Leopard opens with a two-claw attack attempting to go to grapple with Improved Grab
Leopard Attack (claw) 2 dice 5 3 5+10=15
Boar Defense 2 dice 5 13 13+3=16
Miss
Leopard Attack (claw) 2 dice 12 10 12+10=22
Boar Defense 1 dice 12 12+3=15
Hit Damage 4 (no effect due to the boars natural armor)
Round 2 Range=Melee Leopard 19 HP Boar 25 HP
Leopard Attack (claw) 1 dice 10+11=22
Boar Defense 1 dice 12+3=15
Hit Damage 2 (no effect)
The Boar elects to hold his remaining dice in reserve for an attack
Leopard Attack (claw) 1 dice claw 14+11=25
Boar Defense (passive) 11
Hit Damage 3 (no effect)
the two claw attacks do no damage but two claw-hits allow the Leopard to go to grapple range using improved grab
Leopard Attack (bite, bypass attempt -10) 3 dice 9 20 18 (natural 20)
Boar Defense (passive) 11
Hit (Critical) damage (D6)=4+3=7
(After getting to grapple range, the Leopard puts all his remaining dice in one bite attempt, seeking a soft spot unprotected by the Boars thick hide. The natural 20 normally means it's a critical hit but by Codex rules a medium grasping bite has no preferred attack type so it causes no extra Crit damage. Because it was a bypass attack though (-10 to hit) it avoids the Boars natural armor so there is no damage reduction... and now the Leopard can just hang on and keep biting with automatic hits from now on unless the boar can shake him off)
Boar slash attempt 2 dice 5 7+9=16
Leopard Defense (passive) 15
Hit (D8) 2+2 =4 (-1 for Natural Armor) =3
The boar thrashing around viciously, slashes the Leopard with his tusk
Round 3 Range =Grapple Leopard 16 HP Boar 18 HP
Leopard (automatic hit with bite...)
Hit Damage 6+3=9
Rake 3 dice (bypass attempt) 9 14 9 14+12- 10 (bypass)=16
Boar defense 1 dice 16+3=19
Miss
Leopard holds 2 dice in reserve
Boar grapples 12+2=14
Leopard grapples 10+3=13
Leopard is thrown off, back to melee range
Boar attacks with tusks, last die 12+9=21
Leopard defends with 1 die 5+7=12
Hit, Damage 6+2=8 (-1 natural armor)=7
The crafty boar flings the Leopard off his back and, turning the tables on him, gores him with his tusks
Round 4 Range = Melee Leopard 8 HP, Boar 9 HP
Leopard Bite (bypass) 2 dice 15 6 15+10=25
Boar Defend 1 die 20
Miss, Counterattack
Boar slash 1 die 14+9=23
Leopard Defend 3 dice 9 20 3 (natural 20 )
(The wounded leopard, wary now, is taking no chances and puts 3 dice into his Defense. Normally his Natural 20 would mean another counterattack but the Leopard has no dice remaining so the round is over)
Miss
Round 5 Range = Melee Leopard 8 HP, Boar 9 HP
Enraged, and tasting blood, the Leopard is trying to get one more good bite in to finish off the Boar
Leopard Bite 3 die (bypass) 12 20 3
Boar Defend 15
Hit, Damage 6+3=9 (Boar now at 25 damage=0 hit points)
Even though the Boar is mortally wounded now (0 HP) due to his Ferocity trait he can keep fighting until he reaches -10 HP (dead))
(this bite puts them at grapple range thanks to the Leopards Improved Grab)
Rake 2 die (bypass) 9 16 16+10=26
Boar Defend 2 die 9 14 14+3=17
Hit 4+3=7
Round 6 Range = Grapple Leopard 8 HP, Boar -7 HP
Leopard Bite (automatic)
Hit 4+3=7
Boar is dead
The Leopard settles down to a well earned meal of the other white meat
codexmartialis.com • View topic - Leopard vs. Boar
Normally a Leopard would avoid trying to tackle a full grown boar, but there is a drought. Times are tough, risky measures are called for.
Codex version of each critter is as follows (based on the Sovelior SRD and adapted using the Codex Martialis Appendix 2 "When Animals Attack" Pp 25-26):
Leopard
BAB 3 (HD)
Martial Pool 5 (3 BAB + 2 “extra” attacks)
Init +4
Natural Armor 1
HP 19
Attack------Onset------------------------Melee----------------------Grapple------------------------Damage
Claws--3(base)+3bab +4Dex=+10---4(base) +3bab + 4Dex= +11----6 +3 +4 = +12-------------------1-4 (slash)
Bite---------0 + 3 + 3 = +6-----------4 +3 +3(str) =+10------------6 +3+3 = +12-------------------1-6 +3 (pierce)
Rake---------------------------------------------------------------6 +3+3 = +12------------------1-6 +3 (slash)
Base Defense +7 Passive Defense 15
Weapon Finesse (claws)
Dex bonus +4
Str bonus +3
Special: Pounce (allows him to charge for the cost of only 1 MP), Improved Grab (Codex rules version allows this to work with claws if he hits with both claw attacks as well as with the bite)
This is the SRD version:
http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersAnimal.html#leopard
Boar (really a warthog)
BAB 3 (HD)
Martial Pool 3
Init + 0
Natural Armor 6
HP 25
Attack------------------------Onset---------------------Melee----------Grapple-----------------------Damage
Gore (slashing bite)------------0+3bab+2str=+5------4+3bab+2str=+9-----------6+3+2=+11-----------1-8+2
Base Defense +3 Passive Defense 11
Dex bonus 0
Str bonus +2
Special: Ferocity
This is the SRD version
http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersAnimal.html#boar
The Leopard is more the predator, his extra attacks give him a higher BaB, high Strength and fantastic Dexterity together give him a big advantage in combat. On the other hand, the Boar has a thick hide giving him a natural armor of 6, and his tusks (treated as a slashing bite in the Codex rules) cause serious damage. He also has more hit points than the Leopard and with his ferocity can keep fighting even when he's mortally wounded.
Fight
I'm doing away with the pre-fight stalking, and assume we get the Leopard trying to pounce. I'm ruling that the "Pounce" allows him to charge for the expenditure of only one MP.
Initiative
Leopard 10 +4 = 14
Boar 12 +0 = 12
Round 1 Range =Onset Leopard 19 HP Boar 25 HP
The Leopard opens with a two-claw attack attempting to go to grapple with Improved Grab
Leopard Attack (claw) 2 dice 5 3 5+10=15
Boar Defense 2 dice 5 13 13+3=16
Miss
Leopard Attack (claw) 2 dice 12 10 12+10=22
Boar Defense 1 dice 12 12+3=15
Hit Damage 4 (no effect due to the boars natural armor)
Round 2 Range=Melee Leopard 19 HP Boar 25 HP
Leopard Attack (claw) 1 dice 10+11=22
Boar Defense 1 dice 12+3=15
Hit Damage 2 (no effect)
The Boar elects to hold his remaining dice in reserve for an attack
Leopard Attack (claw) 1 dice claw 14+11=25
Boar Defense (passive) 11
Hit Damage 3 (no effect)
the two claw attacks do no damage but two claw-hits allow the Leopard to go to grapple range using improved grab
Leopard Attack (bite, bypass attempt -10) 3 dice 9 20 18 (natural 20)
Boar Defense (passive) 11
Hit (Critical) damage (D6)=4+3=7
(After getting to grapple range, the Leopard puts all his remaining dice in one bite attempt, seeking a soft spot unprotected by the Boars thick hide. The natural 20 normally means it's a critical hit but by Codex rules a medium grasping bite has no preferred attack type so it causes no extra Crit damage. Because it was a bypass attack though (-10 to hit) it avoids the Boars natural armor so there is no damage reduction... and now the Leopard can just hang on and keep biting with automatic hits from now on unless the boar can shake him off)
Boar slash attempt 2 dice 5 7+9=16
Leopard Defense (passive) 15
Hit (D8) 2+2 =4 (-1 for Natural Armor) =3
The boar thrashing around viciously, slashes the Leopard with his tusk
Round 3 Range =Grapple Leopard 16 HP Boar 18 HP
Leopard (automatic hit with bite...)
Hit Damage 6+3=9
Rake 3 dice (bypass attempt) 9 14 9 14+12- 10 (bypass)=16
Boar defense 1 dice 16+3=19
Miss
Leopard holds 2 dice in reserve
Boar grapples 12+2=14
Leopard grapples 10+3=13
Leopard is thrown off, back to melee range
Boar attacks with tusks, last die 12+9=21
Leopard defends with 1 die 5+7=12
Hit, Damage 6+2=8 (-1 natural armor)=7
The crafty boar flings the Leopard off his back and, turning the tables on him, gores him with his tusks
Round 4 Range = Melee Leopard 8 HP, Boar 9 HP
Leopard Bite (bypass) 2 dice 15 6 15+10=25
Boar Defend 1 die 20
Miss, Counterattack
Boar slash 1 die 14+9=23
Leopard Defend 3 dice 9 20 3 (natural 20 )
(The wounded leopard, wary now, is taking no chances and puts 3 dice into his Defense. Normally his Natural 20 would mean another counterattack but the Leopard has no dice remaining so the round is over)
Miss
Round 5 Range = Melee Leopard 8 HP, Boar 9 HP
Enraged, and tasting blood, the Leopard is trying to get one more good bite in to finish off the Boar
Leopard Bite 3 die (bypass) 12 20 3
Boar Defend 15
Hit, Damage 6+3=9 (Boar now at 25 damage=0 hit points)
Even though the Boar is mortally wounded now (0 HP) due to his Ferocity trait he can keep fighting until he reaches -10 HP (dead))
(this bite puts them at grapple range thanks to the Leopards Improved Grab)
Rake 2 die (bypass) 9 16 16+10=26
Boar Defend 2 die 9 14 14+3=17
Hit 4+3=7
Round 6 Range = Grapple Leopard 8 HP, Boar -7 HP
Leopard Bite (automatic)
Hit 4+3=7
Boar is dead
The Leopard settles down to a well earned meal of the other white meat
Last edited:
Galloglaich
First Post
updated... looks better here than on my forum.
Achan hiArusa
Explorer
I was looking on the Paizo boards about fighters and the biggest complaints about the 3.xe fighter vs. the 1/2e fighter are:
1) Loss of Mobility: Fighters can't make a full attack and move anymore.
2) Iterative attacks: After about the first one or two, the rest are just a waste.
3) Concentration: The DCs are too easy.
The Martial Pool itself looks like a good fix for the first two problems.
1) Loss of Mobility: Fighters can't make a full attack and move anymore.
2) Iterative attacks: After about the first one or two, the rest are just a waste.
3) Concentration: The DCs are too easy.
The Martial Pool itself looks like a good fix for the first two problems.
Galloglaich
First Post
Perhaps you should suggest it on there
Achan hiArusa
Explorer
Here is the post where the problems are mentioned:
paizo.com - Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo Publishing / PathfinderTM / Pathfinder RPG / Design Forums / Classes: Barbarian, Fighter, and Ranger / Why I'm Banning the Fighter
paizo.com - Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo Publishing / PathfinderTM / Pathfinder RPG / Design Forums / Classes: Barbarian, Fighter, and Ranger / Why I'm Banning the Fighter
