Martial Pool - a New combat mechanic?

[Achan hiArusa]

I don't know if I want to go back. Do you mean Hide vs. Spot and Move Silently vs. Listen? As opposed to the 1-2 in d6? Or do you mean the possibility of losing up to two rounds of combat because of surprise? It worked fine until you brought in Dark Elf Rangers vs. Svirfneblin Monks or something like that (I know the second was illegal by 1st Edition rules) and you needed the article "Surprise!" in Dragon Magazine 133.

 

[Galloglaich]

I don't know if I want to go back. Do you mean Hide vs. Spot and Move Silently vs. Listen? As opposed to the 1-2 in d6? Or do you mean the possibility of losing up to two rounds of combat because of surprise? It worked fine until you brought in Dark Elf Rangers vs. Svirfneblin Monks or something like that (I know the second was illegal by 1st Edition rules) and you needed the article "Surprise!" in Dragon Magazine 133.

No I wouldn't wan't to do anything that primitive, but I would like to figure out an elegant way to give one side an advantage if they achieved surprise and the other side a disadvantage if they were caught off guard

Here are some of the considerations I'd like to encompass:

1) Surprise should give the "surprisER" an advantage, but it should not mean the "surpriseE" is literally paralyzed. Players should still have options, even if it's only to run a few steps back.

2) Skills like what I think they call now Stealth and Detection skills in Pathhfinder should play a role, but circumstances should play a role too. Which means it has to be at least partly subjective (i.e. up to the DM) but not completely open ended / undefined.

3) There should be a concrete circumstantial advantages in avoiding surprise. I think pretty much any time a PC states that they are expecting trouble that should count for something. Position in the line should count too, as should things like animal companions (one of the primary reasons to have a dog in real life is that they warn you when trouble is coming...)

4) There should be surprise in how surprise happens, i.e. it shouldn't always go down the same way.

5) It should be relatively simple to determine, preferably without charts or miniatures

I don't even know if all that is possible to work out but I'd like to try

G,

 

[Achan hiArusa]

I'm wondering if you could do something with the Martial Pool. Tell them there is a potential surprise situation and then make the appropriate checks. Have both sides put dice from their pool (with extra rolls from the MP factored in) and the winner takes all the dice that were used from both sides and adds them to their pool. The additional dice would last until they are used up or no longer than say 2 rounds.

 

[Galloglaich]

I'm wondering if you could do something with the Martial Pool. Tell them there is a potential surprise situation and then make the appropriate checks. Have both sides put dice from their pool (with extra rolls from the MP factored in) and the winner takes all the dice that were used from both sides and adds them to their pool. The additional dice would last until they are used up or no longer than say 2 rounds.

Thats an interesting idea Achan.

I was thinking of something more prosaic, like having the potential surprise 'victims' make a reflex save or something and if they lose, roll a d6 to see how many Martial Pool they lose (so potentially up to 1 and a half rounds)

But this idea of 'gambling' the martial pool is intriguiging. How would you decide who (or which monster) gets what pool, assuming you have several people on both sides? I.e. how would you divide it up after one side won?

And what should influence cases where one side is more likely to be surprised by the other, such as an ambush?

G.

 

[Achan hiArusa]

If its group surprise, its easy, best spot/listen vs. best hide/move silently. If you are using individual surprise, then you would have to pair monster to player.

Don't people who set up ambushes get a bonus anyway?

 

[Galloglaich]

If its group surprise, its easy, best spot/listen vs. best hide/move silently. If you are using individual surprise, then you would have to pair monster to player.

Don't people who set up ambushes get a bonus anyway?

Ok but I'm still having a little trouble following this exactly. Can you describe how this would work in a less abstract example? Lets say there is a party of four PCs walking down a hallway, not particularly expecting any trouble, and a party of goblins pops out of a secret door behind them and initiates an attack.

How would this work in terms of merging the pools of the two groups together like you were suggesting?

G.

 

[Galloglaich]

Hey one more question. How do you think I should handle the Combat Expertise feat with the Codex system? I don't like using all those -2 to this +4 to that kind of modifiers, and Full Attack Option and Defensive Fighting use the MP in the codex so I thought Combat Expertise should as well.

I was thinking of either making Combat Expertise mean that you can add your weapons defensive value to your Passive Defense (which is a pretty big deal) or making it so that you get a single extra free dice to use for Active Defense (only) on any round in which you are attacked after you have already expended all of your MP (giving you an option for an active defense instead of using your passive defense).

What do you think?

G.

 

[Achan hiArusa]

I prefer the second one as it more in the spirit of the Martial Pool. But if I wanted to do something like the original feat I would say that when you spend a die on active defense you get a bonus die. I believe you already had a feat like that, but I've slept since then.

 

[Galloglaich]

What do you think is the best way to handle Martial Pool for monsters / animals with multiple attacks?

What we have been doing is to give them one MP per HD, plus one per extra attack. So for example a leopard would have 5 MP, 3 for his HD, plus one for each "extra" claw attack. His rake attacks would come into play only in Grapple.

So normally he would attack with claws (longest reach) at onset range, then bite at Melee range, and if he gets the bite he may go to grapple for the rake attack. But if he preferred he could use his whole pool for bite or claw attacks.

What do you think?

G.

 

[Raven Crowking]

That sounds good to me. And it helps make animals seem suitably dangerous at close range.


RC