Martial Pool - a New combat mechanic?

[Galloglaich]

So since you are a rules grognard, here is a question for you: do you think you should have to make a Str check against an armor check penalty to get up from a prone position while in armor? Like say a Str ability check vs. DC 8, plus your armor check penalty?

Real armor isn't as heavy as it is in monty python but it is heavy and would make a difference in how quick you got up from a prone postion. As grappling is a major part of the codex, I was wondering if I should put something in for this.

 

[Achan hiArusa]

I know the major rule for heavy weapons and armor is "don't stop moving" or don't get into a position where you can't move. A person in full plate would have a DC 14 to get up which means if on average with a 14 strength (at least in my games since I use a 40 point point buy) he would have a 40% chance of getting to his feet, which knowing my rolls and the rolls of some of my players means he'd be falling on his rear everytime. Even at 20th level if you had a half-orc fighter with max strength (not counting Rage, Hulking Hurler builds, etc) the chance increases to 65%, which again is pretty much failure for me. A kipup like feat such as the class ability for the thief-acrobat or allowing a tumble check as an option might help.

 

[Galloglaich]

I know the major rule for heavy weapons and armor is "don't stop moving" or don't get into a position where you can't move. A person in full plate would have a DC 14 to get up which means if on average with a 14 strength (at least in my games since I use a 40 point point buy) he would have a 40% chance of getting to his feet, which knowing my rolls and the rolls of some of my players means he'd be falling on his rear everytime. Even at 20th level if you had a half-orc fighter with max strength (not counting Rage, Hulking Hurler builds, etc) the chance increases to 65%, which again is pretty much failure for me. A kipup like feat such as the class ability for the thief-acrobat or allowing a tumble check as an option might help.

Yeah in retrospect that was a bad idea, we decided to simply apply the armor check penalty to any situation where conditions require a DC to get up anyway, like if it's muddy or icy for example.

G.

 

[Achan hiArusa]

Sounds good. I've decided with static 4e defenses the best thing to do would be to treat them like AC, so its 8 + Ability modifier (Str or Con for Fort, Dex or Int for Ref, and Wis or Cha for Will) + 1/2 level, then if you wish to spend martial pool dice on it you can give them an immediate increase. I think I'm still going to use AC bonus for armor so then AC will be 8 + ability modifier (Ref or Int) + 1/2 level + Armor Bonus + Shield Bonus, though I might be willing to do both DR and AC bonus (switching off between them).

 

[Galloglaich]

Sounds good. I've decided with static 4e defenses the best thing to do would be to treat them like AC, so its 8 + Ability modifier (Str or Con for Fort, Dex or Int for Ref, and Wis or Cha for Will) + 1/2 level, then if you wish to spend martial pool dice on it you can give them an immediate increase. I think I'm still going to use AC bonus for armor so then AC will be 8 + ability modifier (Ref or Int) + 1/2 level + Armor Bonus + Shield Bonus, though I might be willing to do both DR and AC bonus (switching off between them).

How would martial pool give an increase, you mean like spending a die for a +4 or something? That kind of defeats the purpose of the pool.

I don't understand 4E to be honest, I've never taken a serious look at it, but I think if you ditch the option of an Active defensive die roll (remember it's only an option - most players wont spend all or even half their pool on active defense most of the time) you lose a lot of the value of the Martial Pool, the whole dynamic of counterattacks for example, and worse still you are going back to doing all kinds of arithmetic instead of just rolling a few dice.

...and there are all the other nice options like bypassing armor, the weapon based bonuses to attack and defense etc. not to mention many of the Martial Feats are all kind of hard to do without active defense.

But hey if you can adapt it to 4E be my guest, let me know how it works out.

G.

 

[Achan hiArusa]

The way 4e defenses work is that they have a static value of 10 + 1/2 level + ability score modifier (Str or Con for Fort, Int or Ref for Ref, and Wis or Cha for Will) and AC is Ref + Armor Bonus + Shield Bonus + Misc bonuses. There is no more touch attack, instead you make an attack vs. Ref. The opponent makes an attack roll against your defenses instead of you making a saving throw. This also means if you attack 20 kolbolds with fireball, you are making the 20 attack rolls instead of the DM making 20 saving throws.

In 3.5 e it works like the static defenses from Unearthed Arcana: Players Roll All The Dice :: d20srd.org

In this case then the Martial Pool would work just like it does for AC, you would add the d20 to your base defense score.

 

[Achan hiArusa]

Okay, one of these days I will learn to read, so active Fort, Ref, and Will defenses would be:

1d20 + Ability Mod + 1/2 level + Misc Mod

And passive Fort, Ref, and Will defenses would be:

8 + Ability Mod + 1/2 level + Misc Mod

Or if you are sticking to 3.5 bonuses active would be

1d20 + Ability Mod + Save mod + Misc Mod

And passive defenses would be

8 + Ability Mod + Save Mod + Misc Mod.

So a 20th level wizard would have active defenses of:

Fort, Ref: 1d20 + 7 + Ability Mod
Will: 1d20 + 12 + Ability Mod

And passive defenses of:

Fort, Ref: 15 + Ability Mod
Will: 20 + Ability Mod

So if a sorceror were to lob a fireball at that wizard he would have to make a 1d20 + 3 (spell level) + Cha mod against a DC of 15 + the wizard's Dex mod to hit him for full damage if the wizard relies on passive defense. If the wizard decides to use active defense it would be the same attack roll against 1d20 + 7 + Ability Mod which does make it swingy. Then either one can allocate additional dice from their martial pool to ensure success.

 

[Achan hiArusa]

In 4e criticals are simply a natural 20 (no confirmation roll), but you only do max damage (which is average for a x2 critical) unless the weapon has the superior critical feature which allows it to do additional damage on a critical. I had an idea for use with the martial pool. If you make a threat on any die you get maximum damage. For each die in the pool beyond that one that is a hit then you gain an additional damage roll (not max damage unless that die is also a threat) up to the maximum weapon multiple (x2, x3, x4, etc) which would make it closer to how White Wolf does damage. No confirmation rolls and makes the players feel better about using multiple dice.

Just an idea.

 

[Galloglaich]

In 4e criticals are simply a natural 20 (no confirmation roll), but you only do max damage (which is average for a x2 critical) unless the weapon has the superior critical feature which allows it to do additional damage on a critical. I had an idea for use with the martial pool. If you make a threat on any die you get maximum damage. For each die in the pool beyond that one that is a hit then you gain an additional damage roll (not max damage unless that die is also a threat) up to the maximum weapon multiple (x2, x3, x4, etc) which would make it closer to how White Wolf does damage. No confirmation rolls and makes the players feel better about using multiple dice.

Just an idea.

I think the latter part of that (one die of crit damage per pool) is brilliant. Do you mind if I use it? Might make it a Martial Feat or maybe part of the default crit rule. Email me your name (or post in on codexmartialis.com) and if you are willing I'll credit you in the next update, I'd really like to use this.

G.

 

[Achan hiArusa]

I sent my name and e-mail here via PM.