D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Remathilis]

I am bias, like I said Selena is my girl, but yeah, I would expect in any cross over for Catwoman to be the equal to spiderman

Then you've neutered Spiderman. Spider sense, spider strength and reflexes aren't any better than what a normal human can achieve with training. At best, the radioactive spider just meant he got to cheat years of training, the equivalent of starting your new PC at 15th level. But there is nothing special about him that any normal person cannot do.

Edit: that should not mean that Catwoman can't hang with Spidey. Black Cat does it all the time, and she even gets her wins against him. But on a raw power level, Spidey should surpass them in nearly every category.

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

Catwoman has evasion, uncanny dodge and expertise with Athletics and Acrobatics with reliable talent.

Catwoman still aren't cutting it against Elminster.

Okay lets play what if...
I sit down to a 20th level game with a 5th level monk, 2nd level fighter 13th level rogue, I fight with a whip that I get to use as a monk weapon, and claws on my gloves.

the woman next to me makes a warlock hexblade 17 divine soul sorcerer 3 (she also took the feat to get 2 druid cantrips and a druid 1st level spell) She is fighting with her pact weapon that can be any melee weapon she wants, and she has thorn whip to melee attack up to 30ft and pull.

The guy next to her makes a Wizard 20
the guy next to him makes an Artificer 20

we have 1 full caster, 1 pact magic with some extra spells, and 1 half caster.


What I want is to enter a dungeon with my version of catwoman and know that I have the options the others have, and that in any given encounter I might have the right answer over them.

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

What I mean is, I’d much rather see “you can use a whip or chain to perform acrobatic feats, or to grapple other creatures” with some basic guidelines, not ever specific singular powers or manuvers or whatever for each thing you can do with a whip.

as long as it is up to the DM not the rules the issue is it will be diffrent table to table, while a refluff thorn whip and spider climb and hold person will always work the same

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

Then you've neutered Spiderman. Spider sense, spider strength and reflexes aren't any better than what a normal human can achieve with training.

she isn't a normal human, she is a super hero (or villian) her training isn't 'just normal training' she is his equal not cause a magic spider bit him and connected him to the web of life and fate, but beacuse she is just that darn good.

I would point out the 100 times that spider sense failed against a normal person, but I am sure you will just call those 'neutered'. In his most resent run normal steel chains held him and he couldn't break them and I am sure Selena has broken steel chains. The power levels of both always fluctuate When they are on the same team you will see them as equalizing.

At best, the radioactive spider just meant he got to cheat years of training, the equivalent of starting your new PC at 15th level. But there is nothing special about him that any normal person cannot do.

I would say he has an above 20 str, and dex... but I would say Catwoman has an above 20 dex and cha

Edit: that should not mean that Catwoman can't hang with Spidey. Black Cat does it all the time, and she even gets her wins against him. But on a raw power level, Spidey should surpass them in nearly every category.

raw power is the thing. He has 'spells' raw power but he can't always leverage that over the training (yes I was avoiding bringing black cat up but yes she has beaten him with all that going for him)

 

[doctorbadwolf]

as long as it is up to the DM not the rules the issue is it will be diffrent table to table, while a refluff thorn whip and spider climb and hold person will always work the same

That’s D&D . That’s exactly why many people play non casters.

Besides which, “you can do XYZ” is hardly any more up to the dm than any other feature.

 

[Emberashh]

Seems were starting to double back on the Genre problem from earlier in the topic.

Superheroes are a genre (as is anime for that matter) unto themselves and there isn't really any crossover into the mixed Sword/Sorcery and Epic Fantasy realm of DND.

Trying to bridge these together typically results in you violating the genres. SW/So and EF are close enough that they can coexist, and Id wager you could actually do superheroes and anime together without a problem.

But you can't do all four; at least not without a much more deliberate system design that finds a way to elegantly blend all 4 genres together.

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

That’s D&D . That’s exactly why many people play non casters.

that is also why many people (no matter how many times you tell me I am alone or other people don't count) wont play non casters unless the game is geared toward non casters from session 0/

Besides which, “you can do XYZ” is hardly any more up to the dm than any other feature.

complare it to thorn whip

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

Superheroes are a genre (as is anime for that matter) unto themselves and there isn't really any crossover into the mixed Sword/Sorcery and Epic Fantasy realm of DND.

what genre is Harry Dresden in? the wizards are if anything MORE powerful then D&D (more like MtA) and they fear normal humans with guns, and Murphy is a big help can do things Dresden can't.
What genre is Hercules and the Oddosy?

 

[Clint_L]

I think it's telling how much of this discussion is about actual superheroes, because that seems to be the split: some folks want martial classes (or just fighters) to in effect have super powers ("jump mountains!") and others don't. It's probably not reconcilable.

Hercules and the Odyssey both predate genre, though today we would classify them as "mythology." Hercules was an actual demigod; his father was Zeus. Odysseus was not, though he did have some divine blood (as did many of the Ancient Greek heroes).

 

[Yaarel]

fantastical is not the same as magical and fantastical is no less potent than magical.

Heh, as a veteran of the psionic debates, I have to emphasize ...

"
A magic is a magic is a magic.
Lovely the power of the
Impossiblest of the impossiblest puissance.

"


4e spoke plainly about "Martial magic". I feel this is the most useful approach, to characterize the different flavors magic and eschew debates about "nonmagic" or what defines "magic".

At the highest tiers, Fighters shift from a low magic fantasy genre to a high magic genre, and are necessarily more like superheroes than soldiers or streetfighters.