D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Emberashh]

I Don't know about everybody else but I've been clear about the point that neither TSR nor WOTC has made a clear description of what high level is except in for fourth edition.

I've stated several times that WOTC did not pay attention to high level other that creating Archmage NPCs like Elminster,

And the key is to make the decision, stop punking out like a bunch of babies, and raise or lower the power of warriors, experts, priest, mages, spells, weapons, hit points, and maneuvers to match.

"Wah. We might upset some players"

Those players don't want to play high level.

You're talking past me again.

 

[Minigiant]

You're talking past me again.

D&D fans nor IPs developers never determined what high level is nor looks like.

So when high level emerges and is different from low levels, no one can agree what is wrong and people come in from many angles.

 

[Emberashh]

D&D fans nor IPs developers never determined what high level is nor looks like.

So when high level emerges and is different from low levels, no one can agree what is wrong and people come in from many angles.

You can just not quote me if you're going to soapbox.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Mod Note:

It is extremely unusual- but not unheard of- for use of the emoji system to elicit a moderation response. @OldSchoolGamerGirl has managed to jump that particular hurdle through repeated abuse of the laughing emoji reacting to posts that were objectively not meant to be humorous.

The prize is a WP and permanent removal from this thread.

 

[Minigiant]

You can just not quote me if you're going to soapbox.

You said I've focused on increasing the abilities of martials to match casters.

I've saidthat fromthe beginning that I have been for determining a baseline of what high level is and matching every class to that.

 

[Emberashh]

You said I've focused on increasing the abilities of martials to match casters.

I've saidthat fromthe beginning that I have been for determining a baseline of what high level is and matching every class to that.

Martials shouldn't be chasing them up the horrible game design tree.

The game does not need more of the same awful design.

 

[Chaosmancer]

We don't need hypotheticals designed to support your argument. We looked at an entire, 141 game campaign of Critical Role, from levels 1-17, featuring as wide a variety of encounters as you would like, and the fire wizard was seldom the top damage dealer, and typically then because of an AoE situation. As expected.

And, as was shown, that wizard often cast spells OTHER than damage.

But I find this interesting. I was challenging the idea that "we can't count AOEs because they are artificial and I can craft the opposite experience" but now the issue is being shifted to... whatever this argument is supposed to be. So, what? AOEs are fair game now but all DnD games must conform to Critical Role, and therefore AOEs aren't as powerful as we are saying?

What does it take to admit that martial classes more than hold their own as damage dealers? Like, if your basic premise is that martial classes suck at every aspect of the game, then there is nothing more to discuss with you. And you are going to be inevitably disappointed by any changes that come out of OneD&D.

And you shift the goals yet again. See, this is really fascinating in its own way. The original point that was brought up was "Martials are the single best damage dealers in the game, casters can't compete at raw damage output" and now it is "Well, martial classes can hold their own, they aren't useless".

Sure, martial classes don't absolutely suck at dealing damage. Never claimed they did. But Casters can deal basically the same or better damage, and they have hundreds of additional options that pure martials can't touch. But we get bogged down on this point about damage every time, because people insist that martials have an untouchable lead that can never be surmounted and THAT makes them the kings of combat, and if show otherwise? We manipulated things to make them seem bad, and if we just believe they suck at everything then we are just misers.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Not when they empowering their weapon with divine smite they’re aren’t. They not casting any spells.

So what's the difference between using a spell slot to deal radiant damage on an attack and using a spell slot to deal radiant damage on an attack, but it is a spell?

And no, I don't consider "but it isn't casting a spell" to be a good argument anyways, because channel divinity and wildshape are also magical abilities used by spellcasters, and they don't even take spell slots. Unless you'd like to argue that the ability to create an illusory double or turn into a rhino is a purely martial ability?

Needing to try and exclude any ability martial have to try and somehow claim supremacy for spells is very strange. it weakens your argument.

I'm not excluding a martial ability. I'm excluding a caster ability. Paladins aren't pure martials, they are half-casters with spell slots. You might as well use their ability to cast raise dead as evidence that martials can bring the dead back to life. They can't. That is a spell. It is being done by a spell caster.

 

[Chaosmancer]

You one shotted a 13+ level rogue with a whirlwind spell that averages 35 damage and saves against a rogues best save. That was lucky!

Their best save is strength? (Double checks spell) Huh, it does start with a dex save. Shrug, you can call it luck I guess. I just remember casting the spell, capturing them, and throwing them into walls and the DM eventually calling it because they had zero chance of even getting a chance to stab me.

Point was, it wasn't even close to a fair fight. I dominated the fight the moment I decided to fight, with a single action. Even as the barbarian was dominating, but had to basically kite and use the same pattern turn after turn after turn.

 

[HammerMan]

Point was, it wasn't even close to a fair fight. I dominated the fight the moment I decided to fight, with a single action.

I had a friend who started in 4e and tried to DM 5e that way by making high level warriors a threat. The instant ending of those fights almost made him want to quit d&d