D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Minigiant]

No, it isn't.

Yes it does with all the obstacle removal and skill enchancement spells WOTC keeps making.

 

[Minigiant]

And are we talking about potential problems that apply at any level? Or just the tiny fraction of games that are played at very high levels, say 15+? Assuming the numbers WotC are giving us are accurate, the latter are at best a few percent of games, though likely heavily overrepresented on a forum such as this. So if I were a designer, I would be very cautious about trying to fix a level 20 problem in a way that has ramifications for levels 1-10, where apparently 96% of games are played.

This is a topic about high levels.

What's the issue with fixing high level for the few people who play high level.

The people who don't want to play high level wont be affected.

 

[Emberashh]

There is a a whole cottage industry of people who make classes. On DMs Guild, or GM Binder or D&D Wiki. You want a warlord? There are several to choose from. Psionicist? I'd guess a half dozen takes on it. Witches? Several I have personally tried. Swordmages and summoners and shamans? Seen them all. There is a market for classes WotC won't make, but I've not seen a market for mythic, mountain -throwing martial classes. If there IS one, id love to see it. Please link it to me.

Because I see a lot of theory crafting and blame, dusted in a light sprinkle of edition wars, but I don't see a lot of solutions aside from some nebulous idea of bringing the 4e fighter back or nerfing wizards (or the occasional rewrite D&D from the ground up). It's like discussing politics; everyone is sure what the problem is, but nobody has a plan or fix it besides changing the status quo and removing the Other Party that's enabling it.

So I'd like to see someone's attempt to fix this problem. If the problem is as widespread as stated someone has to have cobbled together an attempt to fix it in the last nine years.

Its also true that not everyone recognizes ideas that are coming from a game design perspective.

When I say "nerf the naughty word out of casters", its not because I just hate casters. Its because magic's most problematic spells are all "turn off these game mechanics" buttons, which is horrendous game design.

And that same issue is also why I keep asserting that Martials shouldn't be chasing them up the horrible game design tree.

The game does not need more of the same awful design.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Burning a wildshape and doing an equal job as the rogue is now trivial at high levels

What training wheels easy mode dungeons are you seeing at high levels?

A stock beast is terrible at scouting. The rogue might as well be invisible, and can walk through the entire enemy fortress undetected without spending any resources. At high level they cannot fail a Dex check they're expert in. Period.

 

[Emberashh]

Yes it does with all the obstacle removal and skill enchancement spells WOTC keeps making.

See my previous post

This is a topic about high levels.

What's the issue with fixing high level for the few people who play high level.

The people who don't want to play high level wont be affected.

Because adding more crappy game design isn't fixing high level play. (Which isn't even as broken as you suggest, but thats besides the point.

 

[TheSword]

The DM put us ALL in situations like that. My sorcerer ended up in a philosophical argument with their rogue counterpart. Then once we got bored of that, I one-shotted an equal level rogue with a Whirlwind spell. The Barbarian was put in a one on one fight, which was entirely boring because they had sentinel and polearm master, and their opponent used a greataxe.

Sure yes, decry the actual play experience because you don't like the example, but riddle me this. Let us say there WAS choke points, buildings, tactics, mobility and everything else.... don't you think the clerics would have done BETTER? Do you think that they would have been incapable of producing greater results if given more tools? Or is your argument that the fighter needs the world to shape itself to give them a chance, but if it does, then they can equal the sheer might of a spellcaster?

Also, I love how Blade Barrier is now an "anti-undead" spell. Blade Barrier is an "anti-enemy" spell, it is equally effective against anything with hp.

You one shotted a 13+ level rogue with a whirlwind spell that averages 35 damage and saves against a rogues best save. That was lucky!

 

[Minigiant]

What training wheels easy mode dungeons are you seeing at high levels?

the ones from DMs who...
you've guess it...
are not multiyear year vets of DMing and have not be mastered the elements of dungeon design due to lack of training or advice.

Because adding more crappy game design isn't fixing high level play. (Which isn't even as broken as you suggest, but thats besides the point.

You think that's my suggestion?

I thought I was clear by everything i bolded that I want to nerf spell slots.

 

[Emberashh]

You think that's my suggestion?

I thought I was clear by everything i bolded that I want to nerf spell slots.

Spending so much energy arguing about what martials can't do whilst never actually casting the Casters as the problem says otherwise.

 

[Scott Christian]

So this points to a very important division in this discussion. My goal is this discussion is not to change the PCs as much as the environment in which they operate.

Otherwise we are back to just the standard debates, make Martials stronger, make them more epic, etc etc. The goal in this discussion is how to make the world and magic elements more "martial friendly"

I like the thought, but I am not sure you can detach the two. By making the martial's environment more martial friendly, you are making them stronger.

So much of the debate depends on the DM. Our martials have shined just as much, if not more, than our casters at 15th - 20th level.

 

[Minigiant]

Spending so much energy arguing about what martials can't do whilst never actually casting the Casters as the problem says otherwise.

I Don't know about everybody else but I've been clear about the point that neither TSR nor WOTC has made a clear description of what high level is except in for fourth edition.

I've stated several times that WOTC did not pay attention to high level other that creating Archmage NPCs like Elminster,

And the key is to make the decision, stop punking out like a bunch of babies, and raise or lower the power of warriors, experts, priest, mages, spells, weapons, hit points, and maneuvers to match.

"Wah. We might upset some players"

Those players don't want to play high level.