D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Umbran]

Too much of this topic is improperly framed complaints, and to be fair, a lot of it too is unasked for advice. This doesn't help matters.

Mod Note:
And this post is itself not unasked-for advice that will not help matters?

If the discussion is not up to your standards, nobody is keeping you in it. Please feel free to exit the thread, and find something more to your liking.

 

[Krachek]

No.

Because they haven't been given the tools to do so without bending over backward and doing way more work than they should be asked to.

I’m sorry for you.

 

[Incenjucar]

As members of a community, we have the opportunity to make things better and easier for people looking to join that community. If they can have more years enjoying the game and fewer years struggling against it, that is a good outcome worthy of pursuit.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I’m sorry for you.

I'm sorry for them too. They deserve better.

 

[Krachek]

I'm sorry for them too. They deserve better.

I remember reading the forewords of the 1ed DMG a few years ago.
all I remember is how enthusiasm was Gygax about the game and the experience of fantasy.
Where are we now? 5 edition later, where is this fun of playing DnD?
The game has evolve or regress?
Is the fun buried under a pile of concerns about balance and casters superiority?

 

[Micah Sweet]

I remember reading the forewords of the 1ed DMG a few years ago.
all I remember is how enthusiasm was Gygax about the game and the experience of fantasy.
Where are we now? 5 edition later, where is this fun of playing DnD?
The game has evolve or regress?
Is the fun buried under a pile of concerns about balance and casters superiority?

For some, this does seem to be the case, unfortunately. Every table is different, however, and people experience these concerns to different degrees (or not at all).

 

[Emberashh]

I remember reading the forewords of the 1ed DMG a few years ago.
all I remember is how enthusiasm was Gygax about the game and the experience of fantasy.
Where are we now? 5 edition later, where is this fun of playing DnD?
The game has evolve or regress?
Is the fun buried under a pile of concerns about balance and casters superiority?

I think most of the however many millions of people that play the game (or at least buy the books) just aren't the same sort that will come onto forums and social media and debate these concerns for weeks on end.

Honestly if it wasn't for the fact that Im sticking by a game design mantra of staying engaged with the TTRPG scene I wouldn't be. I stopped having these arguments on Reddit a lonnng time go for a reason, and the OGL debacle (and concurrent butchering of my favorite class) solidified Im not going to be all that much of a DND person going forward.

But, as it is, DND is still where you get a lot of engagement, particularly of the kind Im trying to pay special attention to. A few ideas for LNO are things I got inspired to write following things I read and discussed on this site, after all, and regardless of my concerns over how we debate these questions, its good and necessary to have them regardless.

 

[TheSword]

I don't remember who it was, but one poster proposed the idea that a great way to make martials relevant would be with puzzle traps. If two people have to step on a pressure plate at the same time, then the mage can't possibly do it alone right? Wrong. Animate dead, summoning spells, find familiar, the mage is actually fully capable of coordinating with magic and activating up to five simultaneous pieces. There are multiple spells that could be utilized for this.

And what about options that the DM didn't consider? I was playing my druid character in a set piece encounter with a bunch of pirates. A fleet of small ships was approaching the docks and everyone had to prepare. Most of the characters.... hid. There was literally nothing they could do until the ships were close enough for them to engage in melee. My druid swam out and cast control water. Using the spell, I took out two or three full ships of pirates. Then when they were closer, I cast Wall of Fire and took out ANOTHER full ship, by myself. By the time anyone else could participate, I'd massively changed the encounter. "Oh but it was just the one time"? No. I was also a better and more reliable scout than the rogue, I also was on the front lines with the barbarian, I also was the healer.

It wasn't just "the DM designed this encounter with only one solution" but also "The DM wanted someone to lockpick or break down the door and didn't realize Unseen Servant could be cast through the small open window and unlock the door for us without a check". Casters often can use their abilities in surprising ways, because they have SO MANY abilities. Meanwhile... martials just have skills. That's it.

I love reading the amazing things your characters do with spells.

Indulge me, how did you use control water to destroy three ships?

Also how did the wall of Fire destroy the ship?

The owner left the key to the door in plain sight of an open window - sounds like the DM was going really easy on you. That said who cares at the end of the day if the wizard casts unseen servant or the rogue picks the lock? The wizard really didn’t let the rogue have a go and thus save a 1st level spell slot?

 

[Gammadoodler]

I love reading the amazing things your characters do with spells.

Indulge me, how did you use control water to destroy three ships?

Also how did the wall of Fire destroy the ship?

Can't speak for the fire..but in the spell description for control water for the Flood effect..

"Any Huge or smaller vehicles struck by the wave have a 25 percent chance of capsizing."

And wouldn't you know it, you repeat that effect every round for the duration of..(checks notes)..10 minutes. So a potential for 100 opportunities to fail the 1 in 4 check.

I know..it's hard to imagine a single spell having such an impact on an encounter..right?

 

[James Gasik]

I remember reading the forewords of the 1ed DMG a few years ago.
all I remember is how enthusiasm was Gygax about the game and the experience of fantasy.
Where are we now? 5 edition later, where is this fun of playing DnD?
The game has evolve or regress?
Is the fun buried under a pile of concerns about balance and casters superiority?

You're missing the point. These concerns are about making sure people can continue to have fun playing D&D. Those of us who see a problem with the game's dependency on magic giving some players less to do, are worried about people who play those kinds of characters not having fun.

If you're playing a Fighter and you love to smack down foes with attack after attack, and you get stuck in a forcecage, and have no way to do anything about it, that isn't fun. I really doubt anyone would say that's fun.

Now is it the fault of the DM for using an enemy who can cast that spell? Should the DM tie one hand behind their back to prevent a player from running afoul of such problems?

Or is it the fault of game design for making that an option in the first place? How should we approach this? Just continue to rely on casters to solve these problems? Tell DM's "well you should have known not to do that, or used DM fiat".

Or just tell the Fighter he should have picked a different race, subclass, or even class?