D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[HammerMan]

So the kid who watches the D&D movie and says "man, what a great game" and goes out and buys the three core books to run the game for his friends is at fault because the game is 9 years old?

Exactly. There is a guy in the main D&D area right now going back and forth about DMing for the first time, I’m sure he should just KNOW the flaws and work around them and if he doesn’t it’s his own fault. Right?

 

[Gammadoodler]

This is a reason why I think its important to recognize that 5e is 9 years old and is more or less a known quantity.

If you're running 5e in 2023+ then its not really on the system anymore when your games turn out cruddy. Put in the effort or play something else.

This is a really silly thing to say.

 

[HammerMan]

This is a really silly thing to say.

Especially on a forum about an update to fix the system.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Especially on a forum about an update to fix the system.

In a thread about ideas for fixing the system.

 

[Emberashh]

So the kid who watches the D&D movie and says "man, what a great game" and goes out and buys the three core books to run the game for his friends is at fault because the game is 9 years old?

Remember too that Ive argued in this topic that the game isn't that serious. By context, that statement is on the assumption you actually have a problem with the game.

And in my experience, most kids don't until they hit the preteenish age when they start feeling competitive (for boys anyway; i haven't had much opportunity to GM for non-adult women) at which point they're also old enough to seek out help on the internet to fix the issues they run into.

So again, the flaw in the system just shouldn’t be fixed

5e isn't getting fixed. As argued endlessly in other topics, so long as 5e remains a permissable part of OneDND, intact and unchanged, it is not being fixed.

And meanwhile, you and the other folks who parroted the same point are all positing a strawman.

Saying people should recognize the game is what it is and act accordingly if they still wish to play it is not, in any shape or form, the same thing as saying the system shouldn't be fixed.

 

[HammerMan]

5e isn't getting fixed. As argued endlessly in other topics, so long as 5e remains a permissable part of OneDND, intact and unchanged, it is not being fixed.

And meanwhile, you and the other folks who parroted the same point are all positing a strawman.

You are in a forum about a new edition/version/variation of the game. You have come to a thread that wants tot all about changes to the game that may or may not come to pass. The thread is about removing caster dependencies at high level. What would YOU like us to talk about then?!?

 

[Emberashh]

Something Ill note about my last post is that Ive seen this same argument play out countless times before, and Ill forward that experience and say that some need to learn the difference between asking for help and just complaining.

Complaints are valid. Asking for help is valid. Framing complaints as though you're asking for help (when that isn't what you want) only causes arguments.

Too much of this topic is improperly framed complaints, and to be fair, a lot of it too is unasked for advice. This doesn't help matters.

 

[Emberashh]

You are in a forum about a new edition/version/variation of the game. You have come to a thread that wants tot all about changes to the game that may or may not come to pass. The thread is about removing caster dependencies at high level. What would YOU like us to talk about then?!?

Read the rest of that post.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

I can’t find a list of dr strange spells but the marvel fan wiki lists “spells we have seen cast” as just under 150.
If I assume strange knows all that is more then a 20th level wizard who know 84 plus 5 cantrips


Oops. Forgot a link. Spells and Phrases

The point is Dr. Strange casts whatever he needs to cast. There seems to be very little limitations on what magic can do. The magic is easy with very little downside unless the plot calls for it, which is the exception not the rule. He can spam magic at will, etc.

It's much closer to the D&D Wizard than wizards in most fantasy stories.

Wizards in D&D

1) can cast spells that cover a huge area of influence -- direct damage, all elements, mind control, long range transportation, fly, summoning, divination, shapechange, stealth, ensnarement, etc. You are lucky if you get one or two of these in many fantasy stories.

2) basically no personal downsides to casting. In many stories people age dramatically, slowly turn to stone, get so fatigued they are basically incapcitated, etc.

3) can cast very frequently. In many stories, powerful magic is more like rituals and can take hours or days. Even if not, some spellcasters cast 1-2 spells a day not 20. Gandalf was not prolific. I don't remember the Wizards in Dying Earth casting that many spells per day either.

4) cast very powerful spells. Not only can teleport, but can do it over great distances and take other people with them, etc.

It's top tier superhero like, like Dr. Strange or mythic. Which is the issue when comparing to maritals.

Personally, for an RPG I think #1 is the real culprit. If Wizards were limited to area effect direct damage and say 1 area of influence outside this (transport, mind control, divination, battlefield control, etc.) then things would be a lot better.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

Yeah this is why I am holding out hope that 6e will be strong 4e influence with some lesser 2e influence and just a smattering of 5e. Rebuilt from the ground up.

PF2e is a bit of this. Perhaps a bit too much 3e/Pf1e influence in there as well, though...