D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[nevin]

Also reminds me. biggest moneymakers for mages. permanent breeze on the patio, knecklaces of alter self for vain lords and ladies,
permanantly chilled drinks. Just think about how much more the staff that can chill all the drinks would get paid even if that was thier only cantrip.

 

[Clint_L]

I ask players to give me a head's up if they are planning to multi-class so we can work it into the story. Waking up one morning and suddenly being a martial arts expert doesn't make sense.

 

[Incenjucar]

All-caster parties aren't the norm, and so they aren't a big stress point in the current state of the game.

So martials ratchet down the effectiveness of the party so much that an all-caster party would be a stress point?

 

[Clint_L]

Also reminds me. biggest moneymakers for mages. permanent breeze on the patio, knecklaces of alter self for vain lords and ladies,
permanantly chilled drinks. Just think about how much more the staff that can chill all the drinks would get paid even if that was thier only cantrip.

For real, if I was a high enough level caster I would just travel to the best vacation destinations and sit back on the beach sipping a daiquiri and reading a good bock while making money hand over fist from all the rich guests staying at my magnificent mansion, rooms customized to their exact taste, of course. Train up some more casters and franchise out.

 

[HammerMan]

All of those things are more flavorful than "mysterious forces".

Flavor is like Beauty and art. In the eye of the beholder. Also magic doesn’t work when that beholder eye is on you.

 

[HammerMan]

So martials ratchet down the effectiveness of the party so much that an all-caster party would be a stress point?

That is something people said and got mocked for

 

[HammerMan]

Here is a challenge: explain to me the difference between a bard, sorcerer, wizard and warlock. Do not mention any game mechanics.

Magic of song magic of the soul magic of the mind but all still similar in spells. And sell yourself for power

 

[HammerMan]

I have seen the complaints from Fighter players ever since I learned to play D&D.

In 2e one good hit could drop a wizard that didn’t have the right spells. And that was true through 20th level. The wizard could not respec to tank or do melee at all.

The complaints I normally heard were about multi and duel class fighter wizards having their cake and eating it too.


In my experience the fighter complaint was born of WoTC and 3e

 

[Chaosmancer]

Yes. 5e has magic that isnt spellcasting. Dragonbreath is a good example, and there are many others.

And we pointed that out as a possible explanation, and people said it wasn't good enough because they didn't know how the fighter could harness that. Not that people objected to it meaning that fighter's were magical, but that it was rejected because it wasn't a good enough explanation.

I am fine with "mystical training to harness the soul". At the same time, this feels moreorless identical with "ki" and with "psionic". Which is ok with me, but is a flavor that may appeal less to other players with regard to the Fighter concept.

Yep, when it was pointed out that monks were allowed to be extraordinary, and we asked why not fighters, we were told monks got special mystical training. So we pointed that out as an explanation for why fighters could be extraordinary.

We were then ignored, supposedly this wasn't a good enough explanation. After all, it might not be universally beloved. Like Cake which all 42% of people like.

I insist this all magic for the same reason that Psionic is magic.

By any name, it is magic.

But there are different kinds of magic, with different kinds of flavors.

Yes, you keep insisting on your definition, and then complaining when people who don't share your definition think you are trying to give fighter's spells. And then you use their objection to demand we offer an explanation for the fighter's extraordinary features, so we give one. And then you call it magic, and people disagree with you because they have a different definition of magic, and then you use that to demand we offer an explanation...

Do you see the problem? The "anything that isn't the physics of reality earth is magic" stance is not shared. You keep responding under that assumption, and people keep misinterpreting you. And then you misinterpret them.

Stop it.

 

[HammerMan]

UMMM level 20 the wizard has 9th level spells.

yeah Fighter is going to be in +5 plate mail of fortitude reducing crit attacks, probably have a cloak of Displacements=, Boots of haste, at least a dozen potions, a helm of brilliance or teleportation, girdle of giant strength, mabye even some Item that gives them SR. At 20 i'd consider that about average equipment for a fighter.

I want your DM handing out legendary and better items all the time on 20th level characters.

Although an armor artificer or hexblade with a feat could do all that with an average of 22 less hp. And still have all the spells including weapon attack cantrips.