Pathfinder 2E Martials > Casters

[The-Magic-Sword]

Hi @The-Magic-Sword I hope you didn't forget about the very first sentence of the thread:



(That Wizards can "outpace the DPR" of a warrior in the round they cast Fireball is not under debate)

5th level is when you get your first 3rd level slots, with which you can potentially cast fireball (among others), the level 5 Wizard I drafted in Pathbuilder just now to check has two third level slots, and can restore one of them using their universalist feature. It would be possible to use spell blending to get more but let's not eke out every single advantage.

All my math pertains to sixth level characters, because that is the level my players are currently at when the encounter I shared my experience of happened and then deconstructed it, using their Save DCs, and spells.

That falls in the 5 to 7 range, but the math is pretty tight and scales linearly so the main limition below 5 is the number of damaging AOE 2nd level spells that exist in total.

I'm also uncertain as to how you would justify it's exclusion, since fights in Pathfinder aren't that many rounds in total so dealing a massive chunk to the encounter right off is more valuable than the theoretical sustained DPR of swinging at the same target all day.

 

[CapnZapp]

I'm saying that in the level range discussed here, players should not expect the 5E experience of playing a caster. More like the experience of bygone days, before 5E.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

I'm saying that in the level range discussed here, players should not expect the 5E experience of playing a caster. More like the experience of bygone days, before 5E.

Elaborate, what is the experience you are referring to that you think is a thing in 5e, that isn't a thing in PF2e?

Because having literally switched from several years of 5e, to low level PF2e for the past 6+ months, I wouldn't say fireball is one of the differences in the experience of casters (its slightly less mandatory I guess, than it was in 5e, since 5e intentionally overtuned the hell out of it to support it being 'iconic.')

You get it at the same point in the game as you do in 5e (Level 5, within our level range), and use it the same way (to take a massive chunk out of an encounter when the best opportunity presents itself), the better math in 2e changes its effectiveness but compared to the rest of 2e it's still quite powerful.

My point here is that while utility spells are nice, Casters aren't out of the damage running at any level, they just rely on alternate means of attaining the numbers they need to compete, and your initial thesis is ultimately bunk.

Even before you get Fireball and similar AOE damage spells, you see other spells playing a central damage role-- our Magic Missile casters basically shaped our early meta around themselves as being the best way to chunk large bosses to reduce the swinginess of those encounters, to the point where people were going out of their way to craft wands with the spell, Flaming Sphere fills a similar niche to fireball. We had an entire dungeon afflicted with Ghoulish Cravings via a monster catch-and-release.

Divine is a bit less blasty overall, but I should point out that the value of Heal as a spell at any level should not be underestimated in this game, and low levels are still very swingy.

 

[CapnZapp]

At this point, I'm going to have to ask you if you've read my initial batch of posts in the thread.

You call my theory "bunk", but I have no desire to repeat myself. Please be specific about what you consider is "bunk" and I will respond.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

Yes Zapp, I read your posts, I don't see anything in them that refutes my point- as for what I consider Bunk it's bits like

"casting a spell is almost always a step down compared to making a physical attack." or "and specifically utility spells, is the one big outlet."

I stand by my point, casters in this game can do big damage numbers, it isn't reserved for martials, between that, their utility, and their buffing which martials barely have, the premise of the thread is 'bunk.'

 

[CapnZapp]

What specific claim do you call bunk, @The-Magic-Sword ?

Look at my OP (quoted in full below). Do note that I do not discuss Fireball here. Just because a caster can cast the odd Fireball once she reaches level 5 that does not contradict my finding: that PF2 is definitely a throwback to the time before 5th Edition.

Is that necessarily bad? No. It just is.

But in the age of 5th edition, it is something that I find helpful to spell out.

If there's a specific statement in this post you want to call out as "bunk", please do.

Note that the statement "casting a spell is almost always a step down compared to making a physical attack." remains true even when you do cast Fireball twice a day or whatever. Just because Fireball remains a damaging spell doesn't mean you get to ignore all the other spells of levels 1-3, not to mention the cantrips that casters are referred to between using spell slots.

"Casting a spell is almost always a step down" Even if you think Fireball is fine, it doesn't change the fact that "almost always" can exclude the few times you do cast Fireball. (Not to mention all the PC and NPC casters who aren't casting Fireball) And if you plan to argue "never a reason not to cast Fireball" you've basically validated my argument.

This discussion revolves around low levels, maybe up to level 5-7 or so.

The message from my play experience is loud n clear: PF2 is definitely a throwback to the time before 5th Edition - martials are significantly stronger than casters at low levels.

This goes both for player characters and monsters/NPCs.

Some level 2 monsters with claws and spears and teeth and spikes are more like level 3 when it comes to their contribution to overall encounter difficulty. Some level 2 monsters with spells are more like level 1.

(Obviously a BBEG monster three levels above the heroes can do scary stuff with magic. Is that my point? No)

As the GM, casting a spell is almost always a step down compared to making a physical attack. Monsters have excellent attack bonuses and impressive damage. Their spells... are just as feeble as when cast by heroes. (I still have my spellcasting monsters cast their spells, of course. This isn't me complaining about weak monsters. PF2 is not a game where I complain about weak monsters )

I'm aware some people like it that way. And I'm sure you can argue the tables turn at higher level. None of that's relevant. There's no need for excuses or justifications - I'm not attacking or complaining.

At this point I just want to throw it out there. It simply is. But it's worth making known to the wider audience. So let's discuss.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

Fireball is an example, not the end of the argument, also even at level 5 (depending on class and options taken) you can cast fireball three times per day, or potentially even more, so it isn't an odd fireball here and there, its enough to hurl one in three encounters, and as we know well, the majority of games don't actually gauntlet their players in terms of number of encounters-- it was the chief mismatch with 5e's 6-8 adventuring day and why Pathfinder was very decidedly not designed that way.

PF2e is definitely NOT a throwback to the time before 5th edition -- martials are NOT significantly stronger than casters at low level. Casters are about as powerful on a per build basis as Martials, that is the part of your argument that is bunk. It isn't just one spell, it's a whole bunch of useful spells, though the game, much like 5e, has a meta where some spells are better/worse than others, or need to be used in specific ways to make the most of them.

So far off the top of my head all of the following have been highlights in my group. Focusing on slotted spells, though I see a lot of focus spells too (elemental toss, and dragon claw, sunblade, and animal form wildshape being prominent examples)

• Magic Missile is meta defining at low level.
• Flaming Sphere is a great low level AOE.
• Burning Hands puts in work.
• Heal is wonderful, in just about every way, and puts in even more work against certain targets.
• Haste is still a great way to buff your party.
• Fireball indeed, is a great spell.
• Shield sees regular use in my party, as a convenient third action.
• True Strike is obviously great in tandem with spell attacks, or for buffing gish melee attacks.
• Vampiric Touch has contributed to a regular caster's longevity in melee.
• Lightning bolt remains a powerful AOE
• Summon Fey has seen use at low level to get a secondary caster on the field, and waste enemy actions.
• Harm is very versatile with it's action-varied effects, and especially functions well as a low level friendly AOE.

 

[CapnZapp]

martials are NOT significantly stronger than casters at low level

shrug

Just because you say it doesn't make it true.

And besides, compared to a martial wielding a Striking Weapon, the 6d6 of a Fireball is outright pathetic. Even when the Wizard gets lucky and deals north of 50 damage with his spell, the martial can usually do the same each and every round all day long...

Magic Missile is nice, but only in comparison with other spells. To compare favorably to a Fighter it would have had to be a Cantrip... (Actual cantrips suck)

Shield and True Strike are certainly not bad... - which is why our Fighter uses 'em!

Casters regularly go from full to zero hit points from any monster higher level than the party, so anything "contributing to a caster's longevity" feels slightly pointless, if you mean a few piddly temporary hit points or similar...

PS. Don't mix healers into this. I'm clearly and openly discussing doing damage. A Cleric can be a life saver but that doesn't help the Wizard.

 

[CapnZapp]

Our party is level 5 now. The martials attack with +14 to +16. Casters sport maybe +11. Of course they avoid spell attacks. So it's Electric Arc for maybe half the damage of a martial's two attacks.

About the only spell that can match a martial round for round are high-level area spells. In effect, casters can deal competitive damage three rounds a day.

Of course, healers remain useful and utility spells are always nice. (Do note I never said otherwise).

But damage-wise you need martials. This will probably change as the party levels up... just like in pre-5E games, in fact. (Do note I'm not complaining, just observing)

 

[Kaodi]

I do not know that it is that optimal given that my Wis is gimped but I like playing my bow-wielding elven cleric. I went for maxing Dex and Cha to help my attacks, AC, and bonus Heal spells. But while it is a sub-optimal damage dealer in any round where it is just attacking in any round where it is casting a two-action Heal (which is a lot of rounds) it can still make that one attack on pretty much any enemy at full attack bonus. My counteract rolls are always gonna trail a character that maxed Wis by 2 though.