Asisreo
Patron Badass
It seems we've reached over a thousand posts on this subject. There has been some perspectives that have been put forth in this discussion. Some has been very integral to the discussion, others have convinced me to have takeout tonight.Mod Note:
Folks, there's now 50 pages of this. I don't see a whole lot of movement. It looks like people entrenched in their positions, repeating them to each other, over and over, occasionally loudly and rudely.
If that doesn't change soon, this thread is apt to be closed as an attractive nuisance. As always, treat people respectfully.
Regardless, I feel there's still some misunderstandings or poor portrayals that are still in this thread, so I want to clear some things about my personal position and where it has moved during this thread:
I'm not against a complex-type noncasting martial, nor have I ever been. More classes, implemented well, is a plus in my book. Though, I wouldn't want a rushed or incomplete addition, which is why I believe a more in-depth discussion about what people's desires for the class is important.
When it comes to the debate, I always wondered precisely why complexity had to be separate from magical ability. To me, it was just a thing that WoTC decided on and ran with. No hostility nor desire to isolate members of the community, they just thought it would be a neat flavor. So I wondered what exactly people wanted from nonmagical characters.
What do I want for nonmagical characters? I was somewhat neutral overall in the beginning, but after reading some things, I agree letting strength-type characters performing superhuman feats of strength with ease would be a cool and appropriate addition in the realm of high-level play.
Though, I also believe there's still something in the community at large that needs to be addressed about how to handle "Guy-at-the-gymism" and how DM's both veteran and new can create both a satisfying experience for high-level martials while staying within an appropriate power scale.
What we want, ultimately, is a fun experience for this edition and future editions. We may not entirely agree with how its done, but I still believe looking these disagreements in the face and coming to mutual understandings will help the community move forward.