D&D 5E Martials v Casters...I still don't *get* it.

[Flamestrike]

They're actually flying with their wings, but you can still Wall of Force one of them with a Spherical Force Wall, but there isn't room to fit both of them at once.

My Simulacrum gets the other one then.

 

[tetrasodium]

It seems to me that there are three seperate issues being discussed in this thread and it would probably be useful to treat them seperately.

1) Are Martials able to keep up in their key area (damage) when compared to casters?
2) Are Martial characters duller to play in combat because of the smaller range of options that they have?
3) Are Martials lacking because they don't don't have anything like the caster's utility out of combat?

These three things may all be true, may all be false, or may be true in some cases and false in others. They are not really intrinsically connected.

1im on my phone right now but posted spreadsheet earlier that goes into great detail on the math showing that they are. I'd be happy to dig up the link and post it again you want.

2is tea less pleasing to drink than coffee because of caffeine content in most blends? This is pretty much entirely subjective so worded and I can't think of any ways it could be measured.

3a I think a better question is " are people exaggerating the utility in the extreme using contrived edge case white room examples well outside the norms of anything approaching normal gameplay seen at the table?" If you look at the extreme resistance to participating in h gameplay setups posed by flame strike or asirio(?) From the people touting the utility strength clearly the answer is yes as it would be laid bare just how deeply exagurated.
3b most challenges are expected to get solved without a spell aquaman probably won't have prepared. Coincidentally that leaves martials with plenty great utility options out of combat.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Then I impart upon you context:

You've been on the run for a while because a previous adventure required you to travel to Sigil and retrieve the "Item of McGuffin" which is important because it has the power to move the plot forward but is otherwise a trinket.

This retrieval was explicitly a crime in the multiverse and after a few minutes of investigation, the trail leads to your group.

Now these two creatures appear and telepathically say "Return the McGuffin, you have committed crimes against the multiverse. Surrender yourselves."

Besides the descriptions, you know nothing about the creatures but I'll permit you to make an Intelligence skill check to know their lore. I'll let you have proficiency too at a DC 20. So you'd have around a 55% chance to figure out what type of creature it is. But its abilities are unknown to you anyways.

I would consider a DM that only provided monster type after I had succeeded a hard DC skill check to identify the creature to be unreasonably stingy.

For the record, I rolled randomly as to my subclass from the 8 schools of magic. I rolled a 7 necromancy. Since it is not a subclass I play often (or ever) and I want to avoid arguments about whether I have undead under my command when attacked, I won’t be using the subclass abilities (except for Grim Harvest, which doesn’t require adjudication).

OK, the wings and the context suggest guardians/hunters, so frankly I would be disappointed if they did not have truesight. I would have asked the DM what weapon they are wielding (which would suggest Str or Dex primary), but I don’t want to slow this down.

Given that my party and I are on the run, I would have cast Foresight on myself in the morning (so I am down my 9th level slot). I would probably go with Disintegrate. Back up would be Animate Objects on a handful of platinum pieces.

Given the context, if my character were alone (and depending on prior rulings on Nystul’s Magic aura), I may have gone with Mind Blank + Nystul’s to avoid the encounter, or Teleport back to my tower where I have the home field advantage.

 

[Flamestrike]

@Asisreo after my Simulacrum and I trap them in the Walls of Force, I cast Magic Circle (Celestials) around them, with the circle facing inwards, using higher level slots to extend the duration.

Then I cast Planar Binding on each of them, using my Diviner Wizard Portent class feature to replace their saving throws with a 3 and a 5 (should they succeed in the Charisma save at +12 with advantage).

I now have 2 loyal Planetar minions I take it?

Spells used:

Simulacrum (Pre cast)
Wall of Force (and the Simulacrum does so as well)
Magic Circle (upcast to 3 hours) x 2
Planar Binding (x2)

You gave me 6 spells. I did it in 4 spells ( 2 of them cast twice though).

 

[ph0rk]

Two people in the forum make up an encounter.

No. We don't have anything to prove to you. If you don't want to get it - don't get it.

Alternatively - play a damn wizard for a year or two.

1) Are Martials able to keep up in their key area (damage) when compared to casters?
2) Are Martial characters duller to play in combat because of the smaller range of options that they have?
3) Are Martials lacking because they don't don't have anything like the caster's utility out of combat?

Yep;

#1 is a sure, although they (fighters, barbarians, rogues) are biased towards single target. Some party members biased towards single target is good.

#2 I don't think people are honestly engaging with this point.

#3 Or this one.

Rogues (for example) arguably have more options outside of combat.

Like this gem.

If all the Arcane Trickster got was cantrips and Ghost Hand I think I would still probably take it over all the other Rogue Archetypes.

Mage Hand Legerdomain and Booming Blade is almost all you need on top of the base rogue. a SCAGtrip is a pure damage increase with or without the rider, and opening things 30' away is often safer than opening them 0' away. The other spells on top are pure gravy.


If nothing else, magic offers mobility, both in and out of combat - and as levels of magic scale, that mobility outclasses forms of mobility fighers, barbarians, and rogues have access to (and eventually, EKs, Rangers, and Paladins gain access to some of it). Not many martials (without racial abilities) can levitate, teleport, fly, or breathe water. Of course, magic offers much more than that.

The thing is - if a party of 4 or 6 had no pure martials, but only a conquest paladin, a twilight cleric, a hexblade, a lore bard, an infiltrator artificer, and a bladesinger wizard, would they feel lacking? Would they care?

I don't think they notice that martials were missing until you told them.

 

[Flamestrike]

No. We don't have anything to prove to you.

Who is this 'we' you talk about?

You're pretty much the only person making such a claim, and then refusing to actually engage in any experiment to back it up.

 

[Asisreo]

@Asisreo after my Simulacrum and I trap them in the Walls of Force, I cast Magic Circle (Celestials) around them, with the circle facing inwards, using higher level slots to extend the duration.

Then I cast Planar Binding on each of them, using my Diviner Wizard Portent class feature to replace their saving throws with a 3 and a 5 (should they succeed in the Charisma save at +12 with advantage).

I now have 2 loyal Planetar minions I take it?

Spells used:

Simulacrum (Pre cast)
Wall of Force (and the Simulacrum does so as well)
Magic Circle (upcast to 3 hours) x 2
Planar Binding (x2)

You gave me 6 spells. I did it in 4 spells ( 2 of them cast twice though).

A few things first. I did expect you'd have a simulacrum which is fine. In this scenario, you're not technically alone in my mind. I'm just getting a general idea of what your way of attacking is.

Also, by "type of creature." I meant the specific-type of celestial or the named celestial. Because its a celestial.

So, your initial casting of Wall of Force would cause them to go invisible, which means they're no longer visible.

Next up, in order for you to continue your line of casting, one of them will have to be freed. Disintegrate doesn't bypass Wall of Force but it does destroy it. If you let go of the wall, it is still an invalid target since it has gone invisible.

Magic Circle has a costly material component, without Wish or some form of DM fiat, its inaccessible to you like Magic Items would be to Martials in this scenario.

Even if it didn't, it has a minute casting time which gives the creatures a minute to not let you successfully circle them since minute castings break concentration.

With Planar Binding, both you and your simulacrum would need lower than a 7 on two of the portent rolls.


So its not nearly as simple as that, unfortunately. The plan breaks down somewhat quickly.

 

[ph0rk]

Who is this 'we' you talk about?

You're pretty much the only person making such a claim, and then refusing to actually engage in any experiment to back it up.

Because you're clearly trying to set up a gotcha. You aren't even pretending to be exploratory, you're constructing a scenario to be right. Pass.

The entirety of the rules are open to you. Construct scenarios and report back when you have clear proof of martial superiority. If you can't do that, you might not understand the rules, or you might not be arguing in good faith.

 

[Asisreo]

Alternatively - play a damn wizard for a year or two.

I've played a wizard. A high level wizard over a campaign. I hated it precisely because of the nuances I had to explain to Flamestrike. These cool combinations seem amazing at a glance but with so many rules and interactions, you can mess it up and waste multiple turns on something that was doomed to fail from the start.

 

[tetrasodium]

All lot of the issues come from the tier system D&D uses.

Many fans attempt to deny it but D&D uses tiers for its effects. Many magical effects come at certain points. And they have been "balanced" traditionally by spell slot resource, additional costs, or drawbacks. The final tier is when said balancers are removed.

The other reason high levels are chosen is because the magic half of the equation is more defined so the level of scale can be fully dissected compared to the non-magical half.

Actually that's not quite right in 5e either. In past editions spell slot growth continued to grow all the way to 20 at a pretty standardized pace. In 5e the scaling growth changes at 5th level slots then again at 6tg level. Thst prevents casters from continuing to grow in the way you suggest.