D&D 5E Martials v Casters...I still don't *get* it.

[Flamestrike]

My experience with playing Rogues is that while they're clearly better off than Fighters and Barbarians they're also clearly better off if they are Arcane Tricksters. Having access to spells like Invisibilty, Disguise Self, Misty Step, Fog Cloud etc just give you a lot more range of options to use your skills and expertise. (Eg if you can turn invisibile you can use your expertise in Stealth in circumstances where it wouldn't otherwise be viable.)

All of which are available a limited number of times per day and ultimately don't add that much to what you can do already (misty step allows for bonus action movement which you can already do, invisibility allows you to hide which you can so in most cases anyway, disguise self is easily replicated with a disguise kit etc).

Youre not really adding new utility with those listed spells. Just slightly improving things you can probably already do, and only a limited number of times per day.

Compare a handful of spells per long rest to the Masterminds tossing out advantage, the Scouts extra skills and at will reaction movement and so forth.

Remember, we're assuming a 6 encounter 2 short rest adventuring day median here, spanning several hours with encounters lasting an average of 3-6 rounds each

 

[Minigiant]

Side note. This is absolutely true. So many times in game design you end up having to just make a choice, and live with the pros and cons.

This is true. I get this for the PHB and first 2 years or so.

However the weird thing about 5e is: the solution is more classes.

Fifth has the fewest added classes. One official class and one officially supported fan class.

However this is the 6th? year? The complex warrior, arcane half caster, psion, and/or simple mage, should have created by now instead of shoving every idea in the existing class. The fighter is now home for more magic warriors than pure martial subclasses.

 

[Don Durito]

All of which are available a limited number of times per day and ultimately don't add that much to what you can do already (misty step allows for bonus action movement which you can already do, invisibility allows you to hide which you can so in most cases anyway, disguise self is easily replicated with a disguise kit etc).

Youre not really adding new utility with those listed spells. Just slightly improving things you can probably already do, and only a limited number of times per day.
ion
Compare a handful of spells per long rest to the Masterminds tossing out advantage, the Scouts extra skills and at will reaction movement and so forth.

Remember, we're assuming a 6 encounter 2 short rest adventuring day median here, spanning several hours with encounters lasting an average of 3-6 rounds each

If all the Arcane Trickster got was cantrips and Ghost Hand I think I would still probably take it over all the other Rogue Archetypes.

 

[Asisreo]

Why look at 20th levels when the vast majority of players rarely see 10th, let alone 20th. 20th is a pipe dream for most players....its a scenario that never comes.

Because the whole discussion is usually set at high-level since the spells that are being called "problematic" aren't even available yet at lower levels. That's how I interpreted the issue.

 

[Flamestrike]

If all the Arcane Trickster got was cantrips and Ghost Hand I think I would still probably take it over all the other Rogue Archetypes.

That's a personal call.

And if you want casting, simply play a Thief rogue. At 13th level, attune to a Staff of the Magi.

 

[Flamestrike]

Because the whole discussion is usually set at high-level since the spells that are being called "problematic" aren't even available yet at lower levels. That's how I interpreted the issue.

Most of those spells are not problematic.

They're just problematic for DMs that lack experience in high level play (a lot) and who keep running 'Street' level adventures for high level (i.e. Superhero) PCs.

 

[Minigiant]

Because the whole discussion is usually set at high-level since the spells that are being called "problematic" aren't even available yet at lower levels. That's how I interpreted the issue.

All lot of the issues come from the tier system D&D uses.

Many fans attempt to deny it but D&D uses tiers for its effects. Many magical effects come at certain points. And they have been "balanced" traditionally by spell slot resource, additional costs, or drawbacks. The final tier is when said balancers are removed.

The other reason high levels are chosen is because the magic half of the equation is more defined so the level of scale can be fully dissected compared to the non-magical half.

 

[Asisreo]

Notice: I moved the challenge to the OP to make it easier to find and try out for yourselves.

pH0rk doesn't want to try it, which is fine, but I'm still curious what the general forum's magic response would be to these creatures suddenly appearing before them.

 

[Flamestrike]

I'm still curious what the general forum's magic response would be to these creatures suddenly appearing before them.

Presuming they're close to the ground, domed Wall of Force, then talk to them, because I'm good aligned, and they look pretty angelic to me.

 

[Asisreo]

Presuming they're close to the ground, domed Wall of Force, then talk to them, because I'm good aligned, and they look pretty angelic to me.

They're actually flying with their wings, but you can still Wall of Force one of them with a Spherical Force Wall, but there isn't room to fit both of them at once.

Talking with them, they say "We are enforcers. You may present your case among the court of justice, my duty is to take you in. And my duty will be done."

Considering that you're concentrating on restricting one, the other would attack you to attempt to break your concentration.

And it likely does break your concentration. It has a movement of 120ft so it has no problem closing a gap after you've casted Wall of Force. It has a

Spoiler: Damage/To-hit and effects they use.

two attacks, +12 to-hit and can deal an average of 43 damage per hit. This gives you a Concentration save DC of 21, making it a 5% chance you'll keep it up per attack if you have a +1 to Con. If, by some stroke of luck, you save, the one inside the Spherical Force casts a spell and goes invisible.