D&D 5E Martials v Casters...I still don't *get* it.

[ph0rk]

5e doesn't make it easy, but with multiclassing, feats, and careful subclass choice one can make a martial with a complex decision tree, rivalling that of a full caster.

In particular, any martial with 3+ levels of Thief and a large supply of consumables (oil, alchemist's fire, caltrops, acid, the DMG poisons, etc.) can easily have a dozen or more options for what to do with their bonus action each turn. Sure, only a few will be relevant in any given situation, but that's just as true for casters' spells. Combine the Thief with the built-in choices of a Battlemaster or Echo Knight and the round-by-round options start piling up. And if that still isn't enough, feats with in-combat options like Healer can add even more decision points.

So, I've not played a thief but I have messed around with caltrops and battlemaster maneuvers. These grow stale; particularly by Tier 3. I'm not saying they aren't better than a champion or samurai - they most certainly are, but the list won't ever approach any particular wizard's list, not will they have the "what do I prepare today" moment, either.

There are whole threads where people gripe about the sorcerer relative to the wizard for this very reason - it is the flexibility, more than particularly explosive power that they want (as a sorcerer actually has just a bit more of that than a wizard).

 

[ph0rk]

You do realize that is a sort of completely undocumented houseuled system change ntcommonly used and that more importantly it actually weakens your case?

It is entirely documented because this is the system of rulings, not rules.

And, as in the other thread I offered to meet them halfway and they bailed.

You don't seem to have any problem with quantum spell lists

Again proving that you only read enough words to begin to formulate a reply.

Please read the entire post.

Picking a new list day by day is part of the wizard experience. It is part of the fun bit.

Trying to carve it out only underscores that someone does not "get" wizards in 5e, or previous editions for that matter.

 

[Asisreo]

It is just as easy to come up with an encounter a great many fighters would utterly fail at. What's more, they would fail at it with rough regularity across the level range, with the encounter appropriately scaled. Because there are some things they cannot easily do. The few things a wizard cannot easily do they can summon disposable monsters to do for them.

I feel like you still believe I chose this encounter specifically to counter casters. But I didn't. I didn't want to say it but Martials won't be proving too hot in this encounter either. I just think its a level appropriate encounter.

It might be a little theatrical but I'm doing it to understand.

I mean, if you could do it and most other players here in this forum could do it, I may change my mind. But I can't understand just because you keep saying its "obvious."

is above the CR limit but something strong that can still cast would probably be a decent choice, perhaps a dragon.

Well, the creature you chose is above the available CR so that's gone. The highest CR dragon you could transform into would be an Ancient White Dragon or an Ancient Brass Dragon, though you can't have a monster that has the spellcasting trait anyways.

But, digging that out, the monsters chasing you do have access to abilities to chase you through the multiverse via plot. Because they have access to Sigil and the one responsible for chasing you is wholly capable of getting them to-or-from different planes/dimensions.

Although, I'd be okay if that's your choice in ending the encounter, I wouldn't consider that a win and they'd continue after you. Their ability to transport was somewhat hinted at by the fact that they Sigil has to do with it.

Actually, let me clarify. Sigil is a setting in the FR which has portals to other planes in the multiverse. So I'm not just giving them their ability to change planes just out of nowhere.

 

[ph0rk]

I feel like you still believe I chose this encounter specifically to counter casters.

No, I'm saying I wouldn't engage on Flamestrike's terms, so I won't engage on yours, either.

Because any one particular encounter does not prove wizards are weak, or strong. They prove the player was clever or not or perhaps that the DM was being tough (as is always the case when a DM tailors an encounter to a wizard's prepared list - which is utter garbage. You did not attempt that).

But, digging that out, the monsters chasing you do have access to abilities to chase you through the multiverse via plot. Because they have access to Sigil and the one responsible for chasing you is wholly capable of getting them to-or-from different planes/dimensions.

The very fact that you have to think about how to chase down the wizard while the martial is already a greasy stain on the ground is the entire point.

Wizards have options. Did they bring the right options that day? Who knows. Finding out is the fun part. As is making an on-the-spot choice given that list of options.

A DM probably already knows more or less exactly what a martial is capable of after a few sessions.

 

[Asisreo]

The very fact that you have to think about how to chase down the wizard while the martial is already a greasy stain on the ground is the entire point.

The martial isn't dead. They could fight back. Remember, I said that the fight doesn't even count as a deadly encounter, so an all-martial team could probably be completely fine if they just fight back.

 

[ph0rk]

Remember, I said that the fight doesn't even count as a deadly encounter, so an all-martial team could probably be completely fine if they just fight back.

Then a team of five martials and one wizard can result in the wizard making tea while the brutes engage in their labors. No need to expend resources because it is not necessary to win the encounter. Perhaps a firebolt or two so the lads know you're still on their side.

If we are to consider a team of five or six casters, though - you might need a 45 minute conversation just to get through the first round.

 

[tetrasodium]

It is entirely documented because this is the system of rulings, not rules.

And, as in the other thread I offered to meet them halfway and they bailed.



Again proving that you only read enough words to begin to formulate a reply.

Please read the entire post.

Picking a new list day by day is part of the wizard experience. It is part of the fun bit.

Trying to carve it out only underscores that someone does not "get" wizards in 5e, or previous editions for that matter.

The wizard can only choose spells from spells present in their spellbook. Contrary to your implications they can not choose from their entire class list like cleric druid paladin & ranger. Rulings not rules at best supports the idea that a gm could make massive changes, not that a gm must show the kind of involvement in wizard spell selections you are putting forward as standard.

The kind of extreme houserules you are suggesting as the wizard baseline are far beyond the scope of any reasonable discussion.

No, I'm saying I wouldn't engage on Flamestrike's terms, so I won't engage on yours, either.

Because any one particular encounter does not prove wizards are weak, or strong. They prove the player was clever or not or perhaps that the DM was being tough (as is always the case when a DM tailors an encounter to a wizard's prepared list - which is utter garbage. You did not attempt that).




The very fact that you have to think about how to chase down the wizard while the martial is already a greasy stain on the ground is the entire point.

Wizards have options. Did they bring the right options that day? Who knows. Finding out is the fun part. As is making an on-the-spot choice given that list of options.

A DM probably already knows more or less exactly what a martial is capable of after a few sessions.

If one particular encounter doesn't prove anything why are you so quick to bring up & cling to niche edge case spells in contrived one off isolated examples? @Asisreo's encounter seems to be a fairly standard sounding combat encounter... those are the sort of thing that can be expected as normal in nearly any session.

 

[ph0rk]

The wizard can only choose spells from spells present in their spellbook.

Yes, and I offered to let Flamestrike tell me what that list would be. They refused.

As I said above - the burden of proof is upon you. If you are convinced wizards are that weak, generate a range of encounters and a range of wizards that fail at those encounters.

 

[Kurotowa]

• Ways to counter magic

I want Conan style, able to bash magic away with a big blade. Resilient Sphere should be breakable. I should be able to flex my way out of a banishment. 5e added a great counter to fly through the use of prone effects, I can inflict prone effects to knock them out of the sky. That's great...I want more of that. Teleports leave a ghostly image for just a few seconds that I can grab on and pull you back with raw awesome, etc.

Heck, it'd be a big improvement to just reestablish the 1e and 2e era save dynamic. For those who don't know, back then the save DC was based on the target instead of the caster. You had a personal "Save vs XXX" target number you had to beat on a d20 roll, and that number improved with levels based on your class. And Fighters had one of the better progressions. At 15th level they had a Save vs Breath Weapons of 4 and a Save vs Spells of 7. That means a 15th level Fighter had a 70% chance to successfully save against every spell in the game, no matter who cast it.

Compared to the current setup, where a Fighter is almost never going to beat the DC of an important Dex or Wis save? That's night and day. Sure, Fighters get Indomitable, but it's just a reroll with no higher odds of success. And even if it was an auto-success it's still just one or two saves per day. Nothing that really lives up to the class fantasy of an iron will and body that can shrug off anything.

 

[Voadam]

Although, I'd be okay if that's your choice in ending the encounter, I wouldn't consider that a win and they'd continue after you. Their ability to transport was somewhat hinted at by the fact that they Sigil has to do with it.

Actually, let me clarify. Sigil is a setting in the FR which has portals to other planes in the multiverse. So I'm not just giving them their ability to change planes just out of nowhere.

Sigil's portals aren't go anywhere any time for any reason, they are generally specific places under specific conditions but there are ones to most everywhere and there are lots of them, not everyone has access to them and I would not expect a bad guy to follow me to a place they did not know I was going.